"Pay one's dues": interdating

Fri May 21 05:01:43 UTC 2010

AllMusic has the Cootie Williams tune as You _Gotta_ Pay Those Dues.

HDAS has 1942, Jazz: to endure a period of apprenticeship or preparation
                  1956, BE:   to take consequences, endure hardship

WRT to the remark about having to pay your dues to know Bird, the
reference has to do with the fact that he was unconcerned with the
fiscal present, let alone the future. As a consequence, he was always
broker than the Ten Commandments and had to depend upon the kindness
of friends to support his various habits. Hence, if you were going to
befriend him, he would expect you help a brother out, when he's _in a
tight_. As Richard Pryor put it, "If you ain't got no money, kiss my
ass, then!" Naturally, he was not known to repay any of his many
debts. To paraphrase Chappelle, "I'm Charlie Parker, bitch!"

"In a tight" may be a clip of, "in a tight spot," but I doubt it, what
with "in a tight" being the only form ever used by my grandparents, my
parents, and my friends, whereas "in a tight spot" was never used.
However, off the top of my head, I can't think of any semantic
distinction, since, IME, they both pretty much cover any kind of
problem: car won't start; girlfriend pregnant; got fired; got
arrested; got dumped; can't meet the car note; whatever. You're in a
tight (spot).

-Wilson

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Garson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Pay one's dues": interdating
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is a 1950 Rhythm & Blues record release that uses the title "You
> Got To Pay Those Dues", but a quick search does not reveal the lyrics.
> Google Books is unsurprisingly filled with older literal uses of
> "paying your dues", e.g., people paying union dues and club dues etc,
> and the song lyrics may also be non-figurative. But it might be an
> earlier interdate for the figurative use.
>
> The B side "Mercenary Papa" is available on YouTube and you can hear
> the lyrics for that song. But I cannot find the A side.
>
> Cite: 1950 April 1, Billboard magazine (The Billboard), Advance Rhythm
> & Blues Record Releases, Page 113, Nielsen Business Media, Inc.
>
> You Got To Pay Those Dues
>  C. Williams Ork (Mercenary Papa) Mer 8168
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=j_UDAAAAMBAJ&q=%22got+to+pay%22#v=snippet&
>
> The Discogs website says:
>
> A You Got To Pay Those Dues       2:55
>  Written-By - Williams* , Swain* , Edmundson*
>
> Cootie Williams And His Orchestra - You Got To Pay Those Dues / Mercenary Papa
> Label: Mercury Catalog#: 8168 Format: Vinyl, 10", 78 RPM, Single
> Country: US Released: 1949 Genre: Blues Style: Vocal
> http://www.discogs.com/
>
> I unfortunately do not have access to HDAS at this moment so I cannot
> read the relevant entry.
>
> OED (1989) due, n.
>  c. fig. (pl.). Responsibilities or obligations; esp. in phr. to pay
> one's dues, to fulfil obligations, undergo hardships, or gain
> experience. U.S. slang.
>
> 1943 ‘S. G. WOLSEY’ Call House Madam xiv. 403 She was mixed up later
> in one of the rottenest shooting messes ever staged in Hollywood, but
> she got away with her end of it and never paid her dues.  1961  N.
> HENTOFF  Jazz Life (1962) ii. 29 ‘Paying dues’ is the jazz musician's
> term for the years of learning and searching for an individual sound
> and style while the pay is small and irregular.
>
>
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      "Pay one's dues": interdating
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Treasury of jazz
>> Eddie Condon, Richard Gehman - _1956_ - 488 pages
>>
>> A musician said, laughing, "To know [Charlie Yard]Bird [Parker], you
>> got to _pay your dues_ . . ."
>>
>>
>> This phrase is plagiarized all over the place over a period of years,
>> practically up to the present.
>> My memory, for what's worth, is that this phrase originally appeared
>> in the 1955 Charlie Parker's Death special issue of Ebony in the form,
>>
>> "If you wanted to know Bird, you had to pay your dues."
>>
>> GB now has Ebony, but I'm not up to learning how to chase a mag down.
>> IAC, HDAS's first cite is so early that there's no glory to be gained
>> by backing up yet another interdating by only a single year. :-)
>>
>>
>> @Jon: as usual, HDAS is full of surprises. Under _duff3 v._, HDAS has
>> "... leave ..." _Duff_ was used with precisely that meaning in the
>> Saint Louis BE slang of my lost youth. I never expected ever to see it
>> in print under any circumstances, since I had been under the
>> impression that it was only a local usage.
>>
>> Youneverknow.
>>
>> --
>> -Wilson
>> –––
>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> –Mark Twain
>>
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>>
>
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>

--
-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
–Mark Twain

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