ont/ahnt

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Thu Oct 7 15:50:53 UTC 2010


At 11:03 AM -0400 10/7/10, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>At 10/6/2010 10:50 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>At 9:47 PM -0400 10/6/10, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>Those are good exx., Larry. Now I can write that poem.
>>>
>>>JL
>>
>>Right; three is enough for a limerick.  The content may have to be a
>>bit forced, though...
>
>Add hawg.
>
>Joel

Interesting.  So, Joel, you have a minimal pair between the following?

hog/hawg, n. 'motorcycle' /hOg/ as in "dog"
hog, n. 'mammal of fam. Suidae' or hog, v. 'bogart' /hag/ as in "frog"

I'm not sufficiently au courant with the former to distinguish the
pronunciations.

LH

>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>>>
>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>>  Subject:      Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>  At 9:11 PM -0400 10/6/10, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>>  >Hog rhymes with frog and log.  It has [ a:] as in gaga.
>>>>  >
>>>>  >Dog doesn't rhyme with anything I can think of offhand. It has
>>>>[D: ] as in
>>>>  >"chalk").
>>>>
>>>>  Ditto for me, essentially, but it *could* rhyme with other words.  In
>>>>  fact it rhymes with "blawg" (a law-based blog, with supposedly 3.95
>>>>  million g-hits; not to be confused with "blog" itself, which of
>>>>  course rhymes with "frog" and "log") and with "Smaug" (Tolkien's
>>>>  dragon, which doesn't rhyme with "smog"), although I concede that
>>>>  those are spelling pronunciations, since neither comes up much in
>>>>  ordinary conversation.
>>>>
>>>>  LH
>>>>
>>>>  >
>>>>  >On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at wmich.edu
>>>>  >wrote:
>>>>  >
>>>>  >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  >>  -----------------------
>>>>  >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  >>  Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>>>  >>  Subject:      Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>  Dear Jonathan,
>>>>  >>  That's my pattern too.  My wife makes fun of my pronunciation of both
>>>>  dog
>>>>  >>  and hog, (She has [D]).
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>  Paul Johnston
>>>>  >>   On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>  > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  >>  -----------------------
>>>>  >>  > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  >>  > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>  >>  > Subject:      Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  > Father and bother rhyme perfectly for me.
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  > Dog and hog don't. At all.
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  > JL
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Paul Johnston <
>>>>  paul.johnston at wmich.edu
>>>>  >>  >wrote:
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  >>  >> -----------------------
>>>>  >>  >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  >>  >> Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>>>  >>  >> Subject:      Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>  >> "CON"/"KAHN" would work as [kDn]/[kAn] in the Pittsburgh area, I
>>>>  think,
>>>>  >>  and
>>>>  >>  >> neither would rhyme with "town", which would be [tan].  I just
>>>>  checked
>>>>  >>  with
>>>>  >>  >> two colleagues of mine, one from Canonsburg, PA, the other from
>>>>  >>  Fairmont,
>>>>  >>  >> WV, and they had different vowels in father and bother (a
>>>  > near-minimal
>>>>  >>  pair)
>>>>  >>  >> as [A] vs. [D] (rounded low vowel).  The latter is LOT/THOUGHT for
>>>>  them.
>>>>  >>  >> The former is, in Wells's terminology, PALM.
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>  >> Paul Johnston
>>>>  >>  >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:17 PM, David Wake wrote:
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>  >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  >>  >> -----------------------
>>>>  >>  >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  >>  >>> Poster:       David Wake <dwake at STANFORDALUMNI.ORG>
>>>>  >>  >>> Subject:      Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>  >>  >>>
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >>>
>>>>  >>  >>> Can you offer a minimal pairs for these dialects?  E.g.
>>>  > "con"/"Kahn",
>>>>  >>  >>> perhaps?  I thought that, with the exception of Eastern New
>>>>  England,
>>>>  >>  >>> these dialects would all use their LOT vowel (rounded or
>>>>unrounded)
>>>>  >>  >>> for both lexical sets.
>>>>  >>  >>>
>>>>  >>  >>> D
>>>>  >>  >>>
>>>>  >>  >>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Paul Johnston <
>>>>  >>  paul.johnston at wmich.edu>
>>>>  >>  >> wrote:
>>>>  >>  >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  >>  >> -----------------------
>>>>  >>  >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  >>  >>>> Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>>>  >>  >>>> Subject:      Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>> Most dialects where the LOT class is a low back ROUNDED
>>>>vowel will
>>>>  >>  >> pronounce ont and ahnt differently, particularly because of the /n/
>>>>  >>  after
>>>>  >>  >> it-- Eastern New England, the area from Erie PA through Pittsburgh
>>>>  down
>>>>  >>  into
>>>>  >  > >> West Virginia and into Kentucky, several Upper Southern dialects,
>>>>  >>  Canada--in
>>>>  >>  >> Eastern New England, the difference should be really striking: [D]
>>>>  (I
>>>>  >>  mean
>>>>  >>  >> the IPA symbol for a low back rounded vowel here) vs. a front [a:].
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>> Paul Johnston
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>> On Oct 6, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  >>  >> -----------------------
>>>>  >>  >>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  >>  >>>>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>>>  >>  >>>>> Subject:      Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>  >>  >>>>>
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >>>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>> At 10/5/2010 08:49 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>>  >>  >>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>  >>  >>>>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 5:45 PM, David Wake <
>>>>  >>  dwake at stanfordalumni.org>
>>>>  >>  >> wrote:
>>>>  >>  >>>>>>> "ont"
>>>>  >>  >>>>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>>> In most dialects of AmE, "ont" = "ahnt."
>>>>  >>  >>>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>> Can you give me some examples where it doesn't?  And
>>>>please don't
>>>>  say
>>>>  >>  >>>>> you won't.
>>>>  >>  >>>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>> Joel
>>>>  >>  >>>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>  >>  >>>>
>>>>  >>  >>>
>>>>  >>  >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>  >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>  >>  >>
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  > --
>>>>  >>  > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>  >>  truth."
>>>>  >>  >
>>>>  >>  > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  >>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >
>>>>  >
>>>>  >
>>>>  >--
>>>>  >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>  > truth."
>>>>  >
>>>>  >------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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