ont/ahnt
Laurence Horn
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Thu Oct 7 15:50:53 UTC 2010
At 11:03 AM -0400 10/7/10, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>At 10/6/2010 10:50 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>At 9:47 PM -0400 10/6/10, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>Those are good exx., Larry. Now I can write that poem.
>>>
>>>JL
>>
>>Right; three is enough for a limerick. The content may have to be a
>>bit forced, though...
>
>Add hawg.
>
>Joel
Interesting. So, Joel, you have a minimal pair between the following?
hog/hawg, n. 'motorcycle' /hOg/ as in "dog"
hog, n. 'mammal of fam. Suidae' or hog, v. 'bogart' /hag/ as in "frog"
I'm not sufficiently au courant with the former to distinguish the
pronunciations.
LH
>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> At 9:11 PM -0400 10/6/10, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>> >Hog rhymes with frog and log. It has [ a:] as in gaga.
>>>> >
>>>> >Dog doesn't rhyme with anything I can think of offhand. It has
>>>>[D: ] as in
>>>> >"chalk").
>>>>
>>>> Ditto for me, essentially, but it *could* rhyme with other words. In
>>>> fact it rhymes with "blawg" (a law-based blog, with supposedly 3.95
>>>> million g-hits; not to be confused with "blog" itself, which of
>>>> course rhymes with "frog" and "log") and with "Smaug" (Tolkien's
>>>> dragon, which doesn't rhyme with "smog"), although I concede that
>>>> those are spelling pronunciations, since neither comes up much in
>>>> ordinary conversation.
>>>>
>>>> LH
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at wmich.edu
>>>> >wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> >> -----------------------
>>>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> >> Poster: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>>> >> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Dear Jonathan,
>>>> >> That's my pattern too. My wife makes fun of my pronunciation of both
>>>> dog
>>>> >> and hog, (She has [D]).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Paul Johnston
>>>> >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> >> -----------------------
>>>> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> >> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Father and bother rhyme perfectly for me.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Dog and hog don't. At all.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > JL
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Paul Johnston <
>>>> paul.johnston at wmich.edu
>>>> >> >wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>>> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> >> >> Poster: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> "CON"/"KAHN" would work as [kDn]/[kAn] in the Pittsburgh area, I
>>>> think,
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> >> neither would rhyme with "town", which would be [tan]. I just
>>>> checked
>>>> >> with
>>>> >> >> two colleagues of mine, one from Canonsburg, PA, the other from
>>>> >> Fairmont,
>>>> >> >> WV, and they had different vowels in father and bother (a
>>> > near-minimal
>>>> >> pair)
>>>> >> >> as [A] vs. [D] (rounded low vowel). The latter is LOT/THOUGHT for
>>>> them.
>>>> >> >> The former is, in Wells's terminology, PALM.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Paul Johnston
>>>> >> >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:17 PM, David Wake wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>>> >> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> >> >>> Poster: David Wake <dwake at STANFORDALUMNI.ORG>
>>>> >> >>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Can you offer a minimal pairs for these dialects? E.g.
>>> > "con"/"Kahn",
>>>> >> >>> perhaps? I thought that, with the exception of Eastern New
>>>> England,
>>>> >> >>> these dialects would all use their LOT vowel (rounded or
>>>>unrounded)
>>>> >> >>> for both lexical sets.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> D
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Paul Johnston <
>>>> >> paul.johnston at wmich.edu>
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>>> >> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> >> >>>> Poster: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Most dialects where the LOT class is a low back ROUNDED
>>>>vowel will
>>>> >> >> pronounce ont and ahnt differently, particularly because of the /n/
>>>> >> after
>>>> >> >> it-- Eastern New England, the area from Erie PA through Pittsburgh
>>>> down
>>>> >> into
>>>> > > >> West Virginia and into Kentucky, several Upper Southern dialects,
>>>> >> Canada--in
>>>> >> >> Eastern New England, the difference should be really striking: [D]
>>>> (I
>>>> >> mean
>>>> >> >> the IPA symbol for a low back rounded vowel here) vs. a front [a:].
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Paul Johnston
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> On Oct 6, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>>> >> >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> >> >>>>> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>> At 10/5/2010 08:49 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 5:45 PM, David Wake <
>>>> >> dwake at stanfordalumni.org>
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>>>> "ont"
>>>> >> >>>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>>> In most dialects of AmE, "ont" = "ahnt."
>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>> Can you give me some examples where it doesn't? And
>>>>please don't
>>>> say
>>>> >> >>>>> you won't.
>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>> Joel
>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --
>>>> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>> >> truth."
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> > truth."
>>>> >
>>>> >------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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