killing people and breaking things
Jonathan Lighter
wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Fri Apr 29 15:00:44 UTC 2011
I'd conjecture further that publicity surrounding the My Lai massacre and
the subsequent trial of Lt. Calley provided the effective spark for whatever
early popularity the saying may have had.
JL
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: killing people and breaking things
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If the modern form was all that common in Vietnam, I personally think that
> evidence for its existence would be earlier and stronger.
>
> Had the anti-war movement - which included Vietnam veterans - gotten wind
> o=
> f
> such a saying (or worse, a semi-official motto), it would have been
> broadcast worldwide. Yet it does not seem to have appeared anywhere even
> after the My Lai revelations in 1969.
>
> On the other hand, I did hear (or read) "Join the Army. Travel to Distant
> Lands. Meet Interesting People and Kill Them" in the mid- to late '70s.
>
> JL
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but all we had back then were Monarch Notes and Cliff Notes.
> > Education was rugged.
> >
> > JL
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Garson O'Toole <
> > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject: Re: killing people and breaking things
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -------
> >>
> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote
> >> > More sophisticated searching finds two apparent (but not conclusive)
> G=
> B
> >> > datings of a desk plaque and a poster, both saying "Kill 'em all. Let
> >> God
> >> > sort 'em out," to 1979-80.
> >>
> >> The expression "God sort all" occurs in Merchant of Venice.
> >> Undergraduates visiting the SparkNotes website are offered the gloss
> >> "I hope God figures it all out!"
> >>
> >> PORTIA
> >> Let me give light, but let me not be light.
> >> For a light wife doth make a heavy husband,
> >> And never be Bassanio so for me.
> >> But God sort all! You are welcome home, my lord.
> >>
> >> PORTIA
> >> I=92ll give light to men, but I=92ll never be light or unchaste. An
> >> unfaithful wife makes a husband worry, and I=92ll never let Bassanio
> >> worry if I can help it. I hope God figures it all out! Welcome home,
> >> my husband.
> >>
> >> http://nfs.sparknotes.com/merchant/page_216.html
> >>
> >> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Jonathan Lighter <
> >> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >> -----------------------
> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >> Subject: Re: killing people and breaking things
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -------
> >> >>
> >> >> I too associate the modern version with the Vietnam War, but GB seems
> >> to
> >> >> offer nothing before Stephen King's _Christine_ in 1983, more than
> >> decade
> >> >> later.
> >> >>
> >> >> "The back of his jacket displayed a skull wearing a Green Beret and
> t=
> he
> >> >> charming motto KILL EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT EM OUT."
> >> >>
> >> >> For reasons that Victor suggests, the medieval quote may well have
> be=
> en
> >> >> adapted (repeatedly) during the Vietnam War (perhaps originally on
> >> campus),
> >> >> but I have no early evidence for it. My shaky recollection is that I
> >> first
> >> >> heard the medieval version in Prof. Jill Claster's medieval history
> >> class
> >> >> at
> >> >> NYU in 1970 or '71, but I can't say for sure. If so, it certainly was
> >> not
> >> >> placed in a Vietnam context.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have no evidence that any version of the saying was in *general*
> us=
> e
> >> at
> >> >> the time. Wild-goose suggestion: It sounds like the sort of statement
> >> that
> >> >> might have appeared in Gustav Hasford's _The Short-Timers_ (1979)
> (th=
> e
> >> >> source of _Full Metal Jacket_), but GB offers no view.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> JL
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Dave Wilton <dave at wilton.net>
> wrote=
> :
> >> >>
> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >> > -----------------------
> >> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> > Poster: Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
> >> >> > Subject: Re: killing people and breaking things
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I too first heard the expression c. 1980. Although I remember it as
> >> >> > "...destroy things," but that could be a memory glitch.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The context was a retired general taking a senator to task for
> >> wanting to
> >> >> > send in the military to do what we would now call "nation-building"
> >> (they
> >> >> > didn't use that term). The sentiment was not taken as "contained"
> b=
> y
> >> the
> >> >> > senator, who was quite shocked that someone would actually admit on
> >> >> > national
> >> >> > television that the army killed people.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> >> Behalf
> >> >> > Of
> >> >> > Jonathan Lighter
> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:35 PM
> >> >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> >> > Subject: Re: killing people and breaking things
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Dave's instructor in 1967 must have been some sort of visionary. GB
> >> >> upholds
> >> >> > my impression that the phrase - as a cliche characterization -
> beca=
> me
> >> >> > common
> >> >> > in print only after ca1980, and especially after 2001.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The order of the activities is often reversed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > As rhetoric, of course, it has the _faux_ childlike quality of
> "Wha=
> t
> >> if
> >> >> > they
> >> >> > gave a war and nobody came?" which was common enough in the late
> '6=
> 0s
> >> >> > (indirectly via Carl Sandburg).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Moreover, "killing people and breaking things" (particularly in
> tha=
> t
> >> >> > emotionally anticlimactic order) makes death and destruction on any
> >> scale
> >> >> > sound fairly contained and refreshingly satisfying. (Take that,
> ene=
> my
> >> >> > creeps! See ya!)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That's why it usually appears in quotation marks. They allow the
> >> quoter
> >> >> > some
> >> >> > distance.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > JL
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Dan Goncharoff <
> thegonch at gmail.com=
> >
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >> > > -----------------------
> >> >> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> > > Poster: Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >> > > Subject: Re: killing people and breaking things
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> >> >> > ---
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > In GB, this is a snippet view from Amazing stories: Volume 15,
> >> Issues
> >> >> > > 1-6, dated 1941:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > "...I'll stamp around and I'll break things up and 'l'll kill
> >> people.
> >> >> > > I want you. Master!" and thus it went, ceaselessly. "He
> remembers=
> ,"
> >> >> > > whispered Clive. "He's mad!" "Not mad enough not to know what he
> >> >> > > wants," said Jason."...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > DanG
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Neal Whitman <
> >> nwhitman at ameritech.net>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >> > > -----------------------
> >> >> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> >> >> > > > Poster: Neal Whitman <nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET>
> >> >> > > > Subject: killing people and breaking things
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> >> >> > ---
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'm writing an article about the military use of "kinetic", as
> >> >> > discussed
> >> >> > > =3D
> >> >> > > > here a few times. A friend who has served in the Army defined
> i=
> t
> >> as =3D
> >> >> > > > "killing people and breaking things", which I've since learned
> =
> is
> >> a =3D
> >> >> > > > common summary of the purpose of an army. The earliest I've
> fou=
> nd
> >> >> this
> >> >> > =3D
> >> >> > > > phrase attested is from 1977, via Google Books:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Armies kill people and break things; therefore, their
> commitme=
> nt
> >> =3D
> >> >> > > > involves serious questions as to who will be killed, what will
> =
> be
> >> =3D
> >> >> > > > broken, and how long and by whom the effects will be felt.
> =3D2=
> 0
> >> >> > > > Parameters: journal of the US Army War College: Volume 7,
> Issu=
> e
> >> 3 =3D
> >> >> > > > (1977)
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Elsewhere, I've found it vaguely attributed to the Vietnam War
> >> era.
> >> >> > Does
> >> >> > > =3D
> >> >> > > > anyone here know of earlier uses than 1977 for "kill(ing)
> peopl=
> e
> >> and
> >> >> =3D
> >> >> > > > break(ing) things"?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Neal Whitman
> >> >> > > > Email: nwhitman at ameritech.net
> >> >> > > > Blog: http://literalminded.wordpress.com
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> >> truth."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> >
>
>
>
> --=20
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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