killing people and breaking things

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Fri Apr 29 14:53:31 UTC 2011 

If the modern form was all that common in Vietnam, I personally think that
evidence for its existence would be earlier and stronger.

Had the anti-war movement - which included Vietnam veterans - gotten wind of
such a saying (or worse, a semi-official motto), it would have been
broadcast worldwide.  Yet it does not seem to have appeared anywhere even
after the My Lai revelations in 1969.

On the other hand, I did hear (or read) "Join the Army. Travel to Distant
Lands. Meet Interesting People and Kill Them" in the mid- to late '70s.

JL

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Yeah, but all we had back then were Monarch Notes and Cliff Notes.
> Education was rugged.
>
> JL
>   On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Garson O'Toole <
> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: killing people and breaking things
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Jonathan Lighter wrote
>> > More sophisticated searching finds two apparent (but not conclusive) GB
>> > datings of a desk plaque and a poster, both  saying "Kill 'em all. Let
>> God
>> > sort 'em out," to 1979-80.
>>
>> The expression "God sort all" occurs in Merchant of Venice.
>> Undergraduates visiting the SparkNotes website are offered the gloss
>> "I hope God figures it all out!"
>>
>> PORTIA
>> Let me give light, but let me not be light.
>> For a light wife doth make a heavy husband,
>> And never be Bassanio so for me.
>> But God sort all! You are welcome home, my lord.
>>
>> PORTIA
>> I’ll give light to men, but I’ll never be light or unchaste. An
>> unfaithful wife makes a husband worry, and I’ll never let Bassanio
>> worry if I can help it. I hope God figures it all out! Welcome home,
>> my husband.
>>
>> http://nfs.sparknotes.com/merchant/page_216.html
>>
>> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Jonathan Lighter <
>> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >> -----------------------
>> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> Subject:      Re: killing people and breaking things
>> >>
>> >>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> I too associate the modern version with the Vietnam War, but GB seems
>> to
>> >> offer nothing before Stephen King's _Christine_ in 1983, more than
>> decade
>> >> later.
>> >>
>> >> "The back of his jacket displayed a skull wearing a Green Beret and the
>> >> charming motto KILL EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT EM OUT."
>> >>
>> >> For reasons that Victor suggests, the medieval quote may well have been
>> >> adapted (repeatedly) during the Vietnam War (perhaps originally on
>> campus),
>> >> but I have no early evidence for it. My shaky recollection is that I
>> first
>> >> heard the medieval version in Prof. Jill Claster's medieval history
>> class
>> >> at
>> >> NYU in 1970 or '71, but I can't say for sure. If so, it certainly was
>> not
>> >> placed in a Vietnam context.
>> >>
>> >> I have no evidence that any version of the saying was in *general* use
>> at
>> >> the time. Wild-goose suggestion: It sounds like the sort of statement
>> that
>> >> might have appeared in Gustav Hasford's _The Short-Timers_ (1979) (the
>> >> source of _Full Metal Jacket_), but GB offers no view.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> JL
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Dave Wilton <dave at wilton.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >> > -----------------------
>> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
>> >> > Subject:      Re: killing people and breaking things
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > I too first heard the expression c. 1980. Although I remember it as
>> >> > "...destroy things," but that could be a memory glitch.
>> >> >
>> >> > The context was a retired general taking a senator to task for
>> wanting to
>> >> > send in the military to do what we would now call "nation-building"
>> (they
>> >> > didn't use that term). The sentiment was not taken as "contained" by
>> the
>> >> > senator, who was quite shocked that someone would actually admit on
>> >> > national
>> >> > television that the army killed people.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>> Behalf
>> >> > Of
>> >> > Jonathan Lighter
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:35 PM
>> >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> >> >  Subject: Re: killing people and breaking things
>> >> >
>> >> > Dave's instructor in 1967 must have been some sort of visionary. GB
>> >> upholds
>> >> > my impression that the phrase - as a cliche characterization - became
>> >> > common
>> >> > in print only after ca1980, and especially after 2001.
>> >> >
>> >> > The order of the activities is often reversed.
>> >> >
>> >> > As rhetoric, of course, it has the _faux_ childlike quality of "What
>> if
>> >> > they
>> >> > gave a war and nobody came?" which was common enough in the late '60s
>> >> > (indirectly via Carl Sandburg).
>> >> >
>> >> > Moreover, "killing people and breaking things" (particularly in that
>> >> > emotionally anticlimactic order) makes death and destruction on any
>> scale
>> >> > sound fairly contained and refreshingly satisfying. (Take that, enemy
>> >> > creeps! See ya!)
>> >> >
>> >> > That's why it usually appears in quotation marks. They allow the
>> quoter
>> >> > some
>> >> > distance.
>> >> >
>> >> > JL
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >> > > -----------------------
>> >> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > > Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> > > Subject:      Re: killing people and breaking things
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > ---
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In GB, this is a snippet view from Amazing stories: Volume 15,
>> Issues
>> >> > > 1-6, dated 1941:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "...I'll stamp around and I'll break things up and 'l'll kill
>> people.
>> >> > > I want you. Master!" and thus it went, ceaselessly. "He remembers,"
>> >> > > whispered Clive. "He's mad!" "Not mad enough not to know what he
>> >> > > wants," said Jason."...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > DanG
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Neal Whitman <
>> nwhitman at ameritech.net>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >> > > -----------------------
>> >> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > > > Poster:       Neal Whitman <nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET>
>> >> > > > Subject:      killing people and breaking things
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > ---
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I'm writing an article about the military use of "kinetic", as
>> >> > discussed
>> >> > > =
>> >> > > > here a few times. A friend who has served in the Army defined it
>> as =
>> >> > > > "killing people and breaking things", which I've since learned is
>> a =
>> >> > > > common summary of the purpose of an army. The earliest I've found
>> >> this
>> >> > =
>> >> > > > phrase attested is from 1977, via Google Books:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >  Armies kill people and break things; therefore, their commitment
>> =
>> >> > > > involves serious questions as to who will be killed, what will be
>> =
>> >> > > > broken, and how long and by whom the effects will be felt. =20
>> >> > > >  Parameters: journal of the US Army War College: Volume 7, Issue
>> 3 =
>> >> > > > (1977)
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Elsewhere, I've found it vaguely attributed to the Vietnam War
>> era.
>> >> > Does
>> >> > > =
>> >> > > > anyone here know of earlier uses than 1977 for "kill(ing) people
>> and
>> >> =
>> >> > > > break(ing) things"?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Thanks,
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Neal Whitman
>> >> > > > Email: nwhitman at ameritech.net
>> >> > > > Blog: http://literalminded.wordpress.com
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> >> truth."
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
>  "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
>



-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

More information about the Ads-l mailing list