More on substituting

[Jonathan Lighter]

Yes, Garson. Your exx. seem to fit.  Your definition sounds about right too.

Descriptive linguistics oberves that the usage exists and seems
nonproblematical to its users.

Common sense says that, to everyone else, it's confusing and illogical and
makes the utterer sound like a complete jackass.  That's strike three.

Much of the reason is that "substitute" alone has never meant "fraudulent or
deceptive replacement" or "disguise." In the the 22nd century, maybe. But
not not now.
People who might say it does mean only that it does for them and their
semantic soulmates. (Of course, I'm sure there are more of those than I'd
like to think about.)

Is it possible that the notion arose from childhood misunderstandings of the
once popular advertising phrase, quoted in my own exx., "Accept no
substitutes"?


JL



On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Garson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: More on substituting
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > Check it out:
> >
> > "There's no substitute for beer."  That means beer is good: accept no
> > substitutes.
> >
> > "Champagne is no substitute for beer." That mean beer is good: better
> than
> > champagne.
> >
> > If you're with me so far (and I'll bet somebody isn't), the following
> > sentence is insane:
> >
> > "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning."
>
> Jon: Do you think the following examples may be similar to the one
> that you are critiquing?
>
> Bottomline: Volume 2, Part 2
> National Council of Savings Institutions (U.S.) - 1985 - Snippet view
> High yields are no substitute for poor credit or overpriced
> properties; pity those who have had to learn this the hard way.
>
> The motor ship: Volume 58
> 1977 - Snippet view
> Q COLLISION-AVOIDANCE radar systems are no substitute for poor
> officers or a guarantee of safe passage. These are among the major
> (and perhaps obvious, a cynic might say) findings of a study carried
> out by Liverpool Polytechnic College ...
>
> Introduction to floriculture
> Roy A. Larson - 1992 - 636 pages - Snippet view
> Growth retardants should be considered as one of the many tools
> available to the grower. They are no substitute for poor cultural
> practices.
>
> Here is my interpretation of this construct when it is used in the manner
> above.
>
> X is no substitute for Y.
> X cannot or should not be used to mask or minimize the problems
> associated with Y. X cannot be used to  ameliorate Y.
>
> (Of course, I am not passing judgment on whether this is proper or
> improper English. This is a descriptivist analysis by a layperson.)
> [Examples are unverified snippets from Google Books.]
>
>
> > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context:
> >
> > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy of
> > "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we]
> have
> > reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and
> > survival the twin brother of annihilation.'
> >
> > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic:  eloquence is
> no
> > substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the
> others
> > are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be
> > increased_."
> >
> > The passage was written by Ron Hirschbein, who has "created programs in
> war
> > and peace studies at the University of California, Chico."  A few lines
> > later, Prof. Hirschbein writes with a straight face, "[P]hilosophers are
> > troubled by contradictions and unintelligible prose, especially when no
> > effort is made to resolve the contradictions and to render clear and
> > distinct expression."
> >
> > Churchill's comment, made in 1955, is provocative. But Hirschbein seems
> to
> > believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His
> > research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear
> > crises." (Think about *that* one!)
> >
> > The passage appears in the popular paperback for undergraduate thinkers,
> > _Alice in Wonderland and Philosophy_, ed. by R. B. Davis (Wiley, 2010).
> >
> > JL
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
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> >
>
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"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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