Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

[Jonathan Lighter]

The question of just when Frenchmen became infallible about what , according
to the song is "naughty" and "bad," is probably not resolvable.

If the phrase was originally and specifically sexually allusive, one would
not expect to find any confirmation of it in print till decades later.  And
any evident "confirmation" could be questioned as a suspected
anachronism. If the song consciously utilized a sexual allusion, it could
only have been because the writers were convinced that the actual allusion
was unfamiliar to the general public and could not be deduced from the
phrase itself.

Certainly the song effectively popularized the phrase.

Here is a roughly parallel ex. of no probative value. Disney's cartoon movie
"Robin Hood," with a woodland-creature cast, features Phil Harris singing a
song called "The Phony King of England."  The tune and the form are
identical to those of a truly salacious song known throughout the
English-speaking armies in both world wars as "Balls to the Bastard King of
England!"  It's nearly incredible that Harris or Disney or whoever got away
with it, even in 1973.

But that they did is indisputable.


JL

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Baker, John <JMB at stradley.com> wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> An Access Newspaper Archive search for the phrase "frenchmen can't be
> wrong" finds nothing earlier than the 1927 song, so the song certainly
> popularized and probably originated the phrase.  My guess is that the 40
> million number came from speakers who were aware that there were not
> then 50 million Frenchmen in France.
>
>
> John Baker
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 3:35 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy
>
> Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1
> slang
> I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use
> in
> the army in 1918.
>
> The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable
> defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.")
>
> The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French
> rarely
> bathed.
>
> The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the
> French
> were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far
> beyond
> "French kissing," if you get my drift.
>
> So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a
> wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her
> many, many acquaintances.
>
> The alleged lyrics:
> http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewro
> ng.shtml
>
> seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase
> originated.
>
> JL
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
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> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer
> > <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred
> Fisher
> > wrote the
> > > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual
> > population of
> > > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million
> until
> > 1968,
> > > says Wikipedia.
> > >
> >
> > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected
> > any kind of reality?
> >
> > BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a
> > song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue
> > to the point of the expression!
> >
> > --
> > -Wilson
> > -----
> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint
> > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > -Mark Twain
> >
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>
>
> --
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> truth."
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