OED's "bogey" and "par"

[Dan Goncharoff]

OED has no sense of "scratch" meaning "nothing" or "zero", the
handicap of a scratch player, or a player who plays "from scratch"?
DanG

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
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> Poster: Â  Â  Â  "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: OED's "bogey" and "par"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 6/1/2011 05:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
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>>
>>I don't see what you see.
>>
>>5b says nothing about a line. It says, "The starting-point in a
>>handicap of a competitor who receives no odds", which I believe to be
>>correct, at least about golf. In golf, a scratch golfer has a handicap
>>of zero; a golfer with a twenty handicap has 20 points subtracted from
>>his score.
>
> I concede error about handicaps and "scratch" in
> golf. Â (Although I still think the origin is in
> the line scratched in the ground for a foot
> race.) Â However, the definition of bogey -> par
> -> scratch player seems odd. Â (For one thing,
> bogey and par are hole-by-hole, scratch and a
> handicap are for an entire round.) Â And for me
> the defect still seems to be to be the definition
> in terms of the undefined "scratch player" --
> it's unnecessarily allusive to some, but not
> identified, previous sense of "scratch."
>
> Joel
>
>
>>Bogey is more complicated, as the use of bogey changed over time, and
>>several terms (bogey, par, scratch) were used to represent the concept
>>of a typical score. Par is traced back to 1870 Scotland in the golfing
>>histories, as a prediction of the winning score at The Open at
>>Prestwick. Bogey was older, but became an English club standard at the
>>end of the 19th century.
>>
>>Starting in 1893 in the US, standards for handicapping on a national
>>basis were developed, and the definitions of bogie as one over par for
>>a hole, and par as the expected score of a scratch golfer arose and
>>were accepted by golfing authorities.
>>
>>Because the definitions changed over time, all of them are correct in context.
>>
>>DanG
>>
>>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
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>> mail header -----------------------
>> > Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: Â  Â  Â  "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: OED's "bogey" and "par"
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > At 6/1/2011 11:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>> >>
>> >>What is wrong with any of this?
>> >
>> > Bogey (U.S.) is defined in terms of par, which is
>> > defined in terms of a "scratch player". Â "Scratch
>> > player" is not defined, and its meaning derives
>> > from games/contests where there is a (starting)
>> > line (the "scratch line"), from which the scratch
>> > player starts and in front of which the player
>> > given a handicap starts. Â E.g., foot races. Â But not golf.
>> >
>> > Bogey sense a. I am not sure about. Â If bogey is
>> > the score of a good player, what kind of player
>> > gets the better "par" score? Â And I wonder if
>> > this sense is still in use in golf anywhere worldwide.
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> >
>> >>5b does not refer to a "scratch-line".
>> >>
>> >>DanG
>> >>
>> >>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> >> > ---------------------- Information from the
>> >> mail header -----------------------
>> >> > Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > Poster: Â  Â  Â  "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> >> > Subject: Â  Â  Â OED's "bogey" and "par"
>> >> >
>> >>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> >>I wonder if the definitions of "bogey" (etc.) and "par" need revision.
>> >> >
>> >> > Bogey:
>> >> > a. Â The number of strokes a good player may be
>> >> > reckoned to need for the course or for a hole.
>> >> > ...
>> >> > c. A score of one stroke over par for a hole. U.S.
>> >> >
>> >> > Par (June 2005):
>> >> > 4.a. Golf. The number of strokes which a scratch
>> >> > player should need for a hole or for a course
>> >> > (freq. with that number as postmodifier). Also:
>> >> > (as a count noun) a score of this number of stokes at a hole.
>> >> >
>> >> > And now for the final term needed to understand "bogey" and "par":
>> >> >
>> >> > Scratch player:
>> >> > s.v. scratch, n., 1.: -- no definition!
>> >> >
>> >> > So I go up to "scratch" -- the most
>> relevant definition(s) seem(s) to be:
>> >> > 5.a. Â a. Sport. A line or mark drawn as an
>> >> > indication of a boundary or starting-point; †in
>> >> > Cricket, a ‘crease’ (obs.); in Pugilism, the line
>> >> > drawn across the ring, to which boxers are brought for an encounter.
>> >> > b. Â The starting-point in a handicap of a
>> >> > competitor who receives no odds; sometimes
>> >> > colloq. used ellipt. for such a competitor. Also
>> >> > fig.; esp. in phr. from scratch, from a position
>> >> > of no advantage, knowledge, influence, etc., from nothing.
>> >> >
>> >> > But surely there's no scratch line in golf!
>> >> >
>> >> > Joel
>> >> >
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