OED's "bogey" and "par"

Wed Jun 1 23:55:09 UTC 2011

At 6/1/2011 07:39 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>OED has no sense of "scratch" meaning "nothing" or "zero", the
>handicap of a scratch player, or a player who plays "from scratch"?

I think not (b. below refers quite specifically
to a "starting point"), but (1) you can decide
for yourself; and (2) the notion above for a
contest seems somewhat stretched to apply to
"bogey" and "par" for individual holes.

scratch, n.1
5.a,  a. Sport. A line or mark drawn as an
indication of a boundary or starting-point; †in
Cricket, a ‘crease’ (obs.); in Pugilism, the line
drawn across the ring, to which boxers are
brought for an encounter. Hence in various
phrases (often fig.), as to come up to (the)
scratch , up to the required standard; to bring
to the scratch , to toe the scratch , etc.
   b. The starting-point in a handicap of a
competitor who receives no odds; sometimes
colloq. used ellipt. for such a competitor. Also
fig.; esp. in phr. from scratch, from a position
of no advantage, knowledge, influence, etc., from nothing.

Joel

>DanG
>
>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the
> mail header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: OED's "bogey" and "par"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > At 6/1/2011 05:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >>
> >>I don't see what you see.
> >>
> >>5b says nothing about a line. It says, "The starting-point in a
> >>handicap of a competitor who receives no odds", which I believe to be
> >>correct, at least about golf. In golf, a scratch golfer has a handicap
> >>of zero; a golfer with a twenty handicap has 20 points subtracted from
> >>his score.
> >
> > I concede error about handicaps and "scratch" in
> > golf.  (Although I still think the origin is in
> > the line scratched in the ground for a foot
> > race.)  However, the definition of bogey -> par
> > -> scratch player seems odd.  (For one thing,
> > bogey and par are hole-by-hole, scratch and a
> > handicap are for an entire round.)  And for me
> > the defect still seems to be to be the definition
> > in terms of the undefined "scratch player" --
> > it's unnecessarily allusive to some, but not
> > identified, previous sense of "scratch."
> >
> > Joel
> >
> >
> >>Bogey is more complicated, as the use of bogey changed over time, and
> >>several terms (bogey, par, scratch) were used to represent the concept
> >>of a typical score. Par is traced back to 1870 Scotland in the golfing
> >>histories, as a prediction of the winning score at The Open at
> >>Prestwick. Bogey was older, but became an English club standard at the
> >>end of the 19th century.
> >>
> >>Starting in 1893 in the US, standards for handicapping on a national
> >>basis were developed, and the definitions of bogie as one over par for
> >>a hole, and par as the expected score of a scratch golfer arose and
> >>were accepted by golfing authorities.
> >>
> >>Because the definitions changed over time,
> all of them are correct in context.
> >>
> >>DanG
> >>
> >>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the
> >> mail header -----------------------
> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >> > Subject:      Re: OED's "bogey" and "par"
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > At 6/1/2011 11:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >> >>
> >> >>What is wrong with any of this?
> >> >
> >> > Bogey (U.S.) is defined in terms of par, which is
> >> > defined in terms of a "scratch player".  "Scratch
> >> > player" is not defined, and its meaning derives
> >> > from games/contests where there is a (starting)
> >> > line (the "scratch line"), from which the scratch
> >> > player starts and in front of which the player
> >> > given a handicap starts.  E.g., foot races.  But not golf.
> >> >
> >> > Bogey sense a. I am not sure about.  If bogey is
> >> > the score of a good player, what kind of player
> >> > gets the better "par" score?  And I wonder if
> >> > this sense is still in use in golf anywhere worldwide.
> >> >
> >> > Joel
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>5b does not refer to a "scratch-line".
> >> >>
> >> >>DanG
> >> >>
> >> >>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the
> >> >> mail header -----------------------
> >> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >> >> > Subject:      OED's "bogey" and "par"
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>I wonder if the definitions of "bogey"
> (etc.) and "par" need revision.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bogey:
> >> >> > a.  The number of strokes a good player may be
> >> >> > reckoned to need for the course or for a hole.
> >> >> > ...
> >> >> > c. A score of one stroke over par for a hole. U.S.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Par (June 2005):
> >> >> > 4.a. Golf. The number of strokes which a scratch
> >> >> > player should need for a hole or for a course
> >> >> > (freq. with that number as postmodifier). Also:
> >> >> > (as a count noun) a score of this number of stokes at a hole.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And now for the final term needed to understand "bogey" and "par":
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Scratch player:
> >> >> > s.v. scratch, n., 1.: -- no definition!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So I go up to "scratch" -- the most
> >> relevant definition(s) seem(s) to be:
> >> >> > 5.a.  a. Sport. A line or mark drawn as an
> >> >> > indication of a boundary or starting-point; †in
> >> >> > Cricket, a ‘crease’ (obs.); in Pugilism, the line
> >> >> > drawn across the ring, to which boxers are brought for an encounter.
> >> >> > b.  The starting-point in a handicap of a
> >> >> > competitor who receives no odds; sometimes
> >> >> > colloq. used ellipt. for such a competitor. Also
> >> >> > fig.; esp. in phr. from scratch, from a position
> >> >> > of no advantage, knowledge, influence, etc., from nothing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But surely there's no scratch line in golf!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Joel
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >>
> >>------------------------------------------------------------
> >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org