OED's "bogey" and "par"

[Dan Goncharoff]

I have a funny feeling the phrase "from nothing" at the end of 5b
means "from nothing'.
DanG

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
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> Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Â  Â  Â  "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: OED's "bogey" and "par"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 6/1/2011 07:39 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>
>>OED has no sense of "scratch" meaning "nothing" or "zero", the
>>handicap of a scratch player, or a player who plays "from scratch"?
>
> I think not (b. below refers quite specifically
> to a "starting point"), but (1) you can decide
> for yourself; and (2) the notion above for a
> contest seems somewhat stretched to apply to
> "bogey" and "par" for individual holes.
>
> scratch, n.1
> 5.a, Â a. Sport. A line or mark drawn as an
> indication of a boundary or starting-point; †in
> Cricket, a ‘crease’ (obs.); in Pugilism, the line
> drawn across the ring, to which boxers are
> brought for an encounter. Hence in various
> phrases (often fig.), as to come up to (the)
> scratch , up to the required standard; to bring
> to the scratch , to toe the scratch , etc.
> Â  b. The starting-point in a handicap of a
> competitor who receives no odds; sometimes
> colloq. used ellipt. for such a competitor. Also
> fig.; esp. in phr. from scratch, from a position
> of no advantage, knowledge, influence, etc., from nothing.
>
> Joel
>
>>DanG
>>
>>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> > ---------------------- Information from the
>> mail header -----------------------
>> > Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: Â  Â  Â  "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: OED's "bogey" and "par"
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > At 6/1/2011 05:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>> >>
>> >>I don't see what you see.
>> >>
>> >>5b says nothing about a line. It says, "The starting-point in a
>> >>handicap of a competitor who receives no odds", which I believe to be
>> >>correct, at least about golf. In golf, a scratch golfer has a handicap
>> >>of zero; a golfer with a twenty handicap has 20 points subtracted from
>> >>his score.
>> >
>> > I concede error about handicaps and "scratch" in
>> > golf. Â (Although I still think the origin is in
>> > the line scratched in the ground for a foot
>> > race.) Â However, the definition of bogey -> par
>> > -> scratch player seems odd. Â (For one thing,
>> > bogey and par are hole-by-hole, scratch and a
>> > handicap are for an entire round.) Â And for me
>> > the defect still seems to be to be the definition
>> > in terms of the undefined "scratch player" --
>> > it's unnecessarily allusive to some, but not
>> > identified, previous sense of "scratch."
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> >
>> >>Bogey is more complicated, as the use of bogey changed over time, and
>> >>several terms (bogey, par, scratch) were used to represent the concept
>> >>of a typical score. Par is traced back to 1870 Scotland in the golfing
>> >>histories, as a prediction of the winning score at The Open at
>> >>Prestwick. Bogey was older, but became an English club standard at the
>> >>end of the 19th century.
>> >>
>> >>Starting in 1893 in the US, standards for handicapping on a national
>> >>basis were developed, and the definitions of bogie as one over par for
>> >>a hole, and par as the expected score of a scratch golfer arose and
>> >>were accepted by golfing authorities.
>> >>
>> >>Because the definitions changed over time,
>> all of them are correct in context.
>> >>
>> >>DanG
>> >>
>> >>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> >> > ---------------------- Information from the
>> >> mail header -----------------------
>> >> > Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > Poster: Â  Â  Â  "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> >> > Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: OED's "bogey" and "par"
>> >> >
>> >>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > At 6/1/2011 11:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> >> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>> >> >>
>> >> >>What is wrong with any of this?
>> >> >
>> >> > Bogey (U.S.) is defined in terms of par, which is
>> >> > defined in terms of a "scratch player". Â "Scratch
>> >> > player" is not defined, and its meaning derives
>> >> > from games/contests where there is a (starting)
>> >> > line (the "scratch line"), from which the scratch
>> >> > player starts and in front of which the player
>> >> > given a handicap starts. Â E.g., foot races. Â But not golf.
>> >> >
>> >> > Bogey sense a. I am not sure about. Â If bogey is
>> >> > the score of a good player, what kind of player
>> >> > gets the better "par" score? Â And I wonder if
>> >> > this sense is still in use in golf anywhere worldwide.
>> >> >
>> >> > Joel
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>5b does not refer to a "scratch-line".
>> >> >>
>> >> >>DanG
>> >> >>
>> >> >>On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the
>> >> >> mail header -----------------------
>> >> >> > Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> > Poster: Â  Â  Â  "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> >> >> > Subject: Â  Â  Â OED's "bogey" and "par"
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>I wonder if the definitions of "bogey"
>> (etc.) and "par" need revision.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Bogey:
>> >> >> > a. Â The number of strokes a good player may be
>> >> >> > reckoned to need for the course or for a hole.
>> >> >> > ...
>> >> >> > c. A score of one stroke over par for a hole. U.S.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Par (June 2005):
>> >> >> > 4.a. Golf. The number of strokes which a scratch
>> >> >> > player should need for a hole or for a course
>> >> >> > (freq. with that number as postmodifier). Also:
>> >> >> > (as a count noun) a score of this number of stokes at a hole.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > And now for the final term needed to understand "bogey" and "par":
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Scratch player:
>> >> >> > s.v. scratch, n., 1.: -- no definition!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > So I go up to "scratch" -- the most
>> >> relevant definition(s) seem(s) to be:
>> >> >> > 5.a. Â a. Sport. A line or mark drawn as an
>> >> >> > indication of a boundary or starting-point; †in
>> >> >> > Cricket, a ‘crease’ (obs.); in Pugilism, the line
>> >> >> > drawn across the ring, to which boxers are brought for an encounter.
>> >> >> > b. Â The starting-point in a handicap of a
>> >> >> > competitor who receives no odds; sometimes
>> >> >> > colloq. used ellipt. for such a competitor. Also
>> >> >> > fig.; esp. in phr. from scratch, from a position
>> >> >> > of no advantage, knowledge, influence, etc., from nothing.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > But surely there's no scratch line in golf!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Joel
>> >> >> >
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