LBS

[Laurence Horn]

At 4:15 PM +0000 5/15/11, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>Doesn't /dz/ take the ~j sound as in tradwerd 
>"Jim" /dzIm/?  My mother's family name is 
>"Dzubak".  They pronounce it ~Dizzuebak 
>(dih-ZOO-back), but in Ukraine it would be 
>~Juebak (JEW-back).
>
>Thus the problem with "pounds" foespeld as 
>/paundz/ ~poundz.  In English one might assume a 
>/d/ followed by a /z/, but IPA has /dz/ as the 
>~j sound.  Or is IPA dependent on a special 
>symbol for the /z/ in /dz/ ?

IPA uses what we're writing as /Z/ for the final 
fricative in "beige" or the sibilant in 
"pleasure"; in IPA it's essentially a hooked <z>; 
see e.g. 
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html 
and note the symbol for the post-alveolar 
(voiced) fricative. The corresponding affricate, 
as in "judge", isn't a simple sound phonetically 
but rather [dZ].  The IPA /j/ is a glide or 
semivowel (or technically a palatal approximant), 
typically <y> in English, <j> in German or Polish 
or Swedish.  I didn't understand what you meant 
by saying "I wonder if /dz/ in /paundz/ would be 
taken for the IPA "j" sound", since I thought you 
were referring to the approximant as "the IPA 'j' 
sound'", but in any case the affricate in 
question isn't [dz], which would represent the 
final cluster in "buds", not that in "budge". 
And no, the IPA symbols aren't showing up in 
plain text, which is why we tend to use one of 
the standard conversion algorithms, yielding 
[dZ], [tS], [dh], etc.  But I think we've been 
through all this.

LH

>
>upodn.com for IPA has for
>
>pounds, mounds, sounds
>pawndz, mawndz, sawndz
>
>jim, jane, badge, judge, saw, law author
>d??m, d?en, bæd?, d??d?, s?, l®ª ?ɐ?r
>
>I don't know if the IPA symbols will show up in 
>the plain text that we must use here.  It would 
>be nice to be able to use rich text.  Can we not 
>do that somehow?  We really need to.
>
>Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9.
>Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk
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>----------------------------------------
>>  Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 16:45:13 +0200
>>  From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
>>  Subject: Re: LBS
>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the 
>>mail header -----------------------
>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  Poster: Laurence Horn
>>  Subject: Re: LBS
>> 
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  At 7:29 PM +0000 5/14/11, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>  > >I wonder if /dz/ in /paundz/ would be taken for the IPA "j" sound.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9.
>>  >Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk
>>
>>  ???
>>
>>  LH
>>
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >>-----------------------
>>  >> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>  >> Subject: Re: LBS
>>  >>
>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>
>>  >> I wavered about the /d/, finally decided 
>>that either it was inauduble or too
>>  >> nearly inaudible to worry about in broad transcription.
>>  >>
>>  >> /'wadEv at r/.
>>  >>
>>  >> JL
>>  >>
>>  >> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:43 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >> > -----------------------
>>  >> > Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  >> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>  >> > Subject: Re: LBS
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> >
>>  >> > Do we not say a wee bit of a "d" in "pounds"? In truespel ~poundz.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > Note the letter string "au" is not used 
>>(in the top 5k most popular words)
>>  >> > to spell the ~ou sound (as in "out") in 
>>English. The only good choice for
>>  >> > an English based phonetic is ~ou.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, then Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 9.
>>  >> > The FREE English-based phonetic converters, URL and text , are at
>>  >> > truespel.com
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>  > >> > -----------------------
>>  >> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  >> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>  >> > > Subject: Re: LBS
>>  >> > >
>>  >> >
>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > At least OBGYN (pronounced as letters) is shorter than something even
>>  >> > more
>>  >> > > unwieldy.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > But what's shorter than /paunz/?
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > Too surreal?: they don't know that "lbs." really means pounds.
>>  >>They think
>>  >> > > it abbreviates something that is the 
>>practical equivalent of pounds, but
>>  >> > not
>>  >> > > pounds themselves. Like "legal burden sizes" or something.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > JL
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:04 PM, James Harbeck wrote:
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >> > > > -----------------------
>>  >> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  >> > > > Poster: James Harbeck
>>  >> > > > Subject: Re: LBS
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> >
>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > >We recently discussed the unusual use of "tornado" in automated
>>  >> > National
>>  >> > > > >Weather Service Warnings.
>>  >> > > > >In a local Amber Alert this week, 
>>the abducted girl was described as
>>  >> > > > >weighing "115 /el bi es/", while her abductor weighed "184 /el bi
>>  >> > es/."
>>  >> > > > >
>>  >> > > > >What's wrong with /paunz/? What's with these people?
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > That's even worse than "oh bee gee 
>>why en" for OBGYN, which is short
>>  >> > > > for "obstetrician-gyncologist" and is sensibly (but seemingly less
>>  >> > > > often) said /AbgaIn/ (forgive me if 
>>I'm using the wrong character for
>>  >> > > > the cursive small a here).
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > James Harbeck.
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>  >> >
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>>  >> >
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> --
>>  >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it 
>>is, you can't handle the truth."
>>  >>
>>  >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>  >
>>  >------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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