Origin of the term "Upstate"
Jonathan Lighter
wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Wed May 18 12:15:14 UTC 2011
To "go up" also meant to be sent to prison, though it may
not have been limited to NY.
"Go over the road" was another old-time synonym.
JL
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:02 AM, George Thompson <george.thompson at nyu.edu>wrote:
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> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Upstate"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Th NY state penitentiary used to be in Greenwich Village, but in 1827 it
> was moved to Sing Sing -- there was a marble outcrop there, so the cons
> could get their air and exercise while doing something useful. Only a few
> years later, a balloonist was arrested for theft, and a cop noted for his
> witty remarks said "he's going up, all right -- up the river".
> {details or the exact quote upon request)
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 7:37 am
> Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Upstate"
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> > At 4:21 PM -0400 5/17/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > >And "upstate" refs. to prison in fiction usually alluded to Sing
> > Sing, in
> > >the town of Ossining (on the Hudson)
> >
> > whence all those dead-end guys would be (or at least get threatened
> > with being) "sent up the river"
> >
> > >, though there are more "upstate"
> > >prisons now than long ago.
> > >
> > >JL
> >
> > I just learned from a native (of the town, not the prison) that the
> > town housing the prison was itself originally called Sing Sing but
> > was later renamed "Ossining" as a kind of taboo avoidance. (This
> > information isn't in Ossining's wikipedia entry, but I have no reason
> > to disbelieve it.)
> >
> > LH
> >
> > >
> > >On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > ><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> OED doen't realize that "upstate" New York is "up" because it is
> > north of
> > >> NYC - or north of whatever part of the state the speaker is in.
> > >>
> > >> "Downstate" is comparably south, though without beingoriented to
> > any
> > >> specific location. "Downstate New York" is a rather odd-sounding
> > phrase to
> > >> me, but "upstate New York" could refer in theory to any place
> > north of New
> > >> York City, though I'd say it's usually restricted to the Hudson
> > Valley and
> > >> immediate environs, western New York being referred
> > unimaginatively to as
> > >> "Western New York State."
> > >>
> > >> JL
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > >>> Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Upstate"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >
> >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>
> > >>> Do you mean apart from or beyond the OED? (Whose entries are from
> > >>> the 1989 edition.)
> > >>>
> > >>> upstate, adv., adj. n.
> > >>>
> > >>> orig. and chiefly U.S.
> > >>> A. adv.
> > >>>
> > >>> 1. In that part of a state which is (regarded as) higher than
> > >>> another, or is more remote from the chief centre. Freq. with
> > >>> reference to the State of New York.
> > >>> 1901 in N. Amer. Rev. Feb. 162 American girls..imported from
> > >>> small towns up-State.
> > >>> 1938 J. W. Daniels Southerner discovers South 247, I heard
> about
> > >>> it upstate.
> > >>>
> > >>> 2. U.S. slang. In prison.
> > >>> 1934 T. Wilder Heaven's my Destination 23 You get the
> > >>> strait-jacket..upstate.
> > >>>
> > >>> B. adj.
> > >>> Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of, an area upstate; situated
> > >>> upstate, rural; also, designating part of a State remote (esp.
> north)
> > >>> from a large city, as upstate New York.
> > >>> 1901 Daily Chron. 16 Sept. 3/7 All the up-State constituencies.
> > >>> 1904 Collier's 16 July 16/1 The crews of the up-State college
> > >>> [Cornell].
> > >>> 1935 Amer. Speech 10 107 Pronunciation in upstate New York...
> > >>> Upstate speech has been studied..by three previous investigators.
> > >>>
> > >>> C. n. or ellipt.
> > >>> An upstate region; a rural area.
> > >>> 1965 ...
> > >>> ----------
> > >>> downstate
> > >>>
> > >>> U.S.
> > >>> The part of a State outside a large city, esp. the southern part.
> > >>> Also as adv.adj. Cf. upstate adv.Used in various parts of the U.S.
> > >>> with varying local significance.
> > >>> 1909 Daily Maroon (Chicago) 2 Oct. 1/4 Springer, a husky
> > >>> full-back from down-state.
> > >>> 1932 W. Faulkner Light in August iii. 58 She had gone to visit
> > >>> her people downstate.
> > >>> ----------
> > >>>
> > >>> There are a number of Google Books hits for "upstate" from 1900 to
> > >>> 1909 that look genuine, all seemingly for New York State. Some
> > >>> possibly from 1841, 1850 (by Jacob Abbot, copyright page seen,
> author
> > >>> is right period), and 1857, also New York. Unfortunately, many
> false
> > >>> positives, but the number of 1900s instances provide varying
> context.
> > >>> ----------
> > >>>
> > >>> "Down-state" shows in the 1900s decade also, from New York. And
> > not
> > >>> surprisingly from Illinois, as early as 1901 (Public policy: A
> > >>> journal for the correct understanding of public ..., Volume 5).
> > Too
> > >>> many "go down State Street" and "broken down state".
> > > >>
> > >>> Joel
> > >>>
> > >>> At 5/17/2011 01:49 PM, Chris Wholers wrote:
> > >>> >This may be one of those questions that doesn't have an answer,
> > but I'm
> > >>> >trying to figure out if there's any documented origin for the term
> > >>> "upstate"
> > >>> >(and "downstate" as well). Does anyone have any idea where
> > these terms
> > >>> were
> > >>> >first used? Or any hints as to where to look?
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Thanks,
> > >>> >
> > >>> >Chris
> > >>> >
> > >>> >------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >>>
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> > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> > the truth."
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> > >
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> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
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> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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