Origin of the term "Upstate"

George Thompson george.thompson at NYU.EDU
Wed May 18 12:02:11 UTC 2011 

Th NY state penitentiary used to be in Greenwich Village, but in 1827 it was moved to Sing Sing -- there was a marble outcrop there, so the cons could get their air and exercise while doing something useful.  Only a few years later, a balloonist was arrested for theft, and a cop noted for his witty remarks said "he's going up, all right -- up the river".
{details or the exact quote upon request)

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then.

----- Original Message -----
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 7:37 am
Subject: Re: Origin of the term "Upstate"
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU

> At 4:21 PM -0400 5/17/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >And "upstate" refs. to prison in fiction usually alluded to Sing
> Sing, in
> >the town of Ossining (on the Hudson)
>
> whence all those dead-end guys would be (or at least get threatened
> with being) "sent up the river"
>
> >, though there are more "upstate"
> >prisons now than long ago.
> >
> >JL
>
> I just learned from a native (of the town, not the prison) that the
> town housing the prison was itself originally called Sing Sing but
> was later renamed "Ossining" as a kind of taboo avoidance.  (This
> information isn't in Ossining's wikipedia entry, but I have no reason
> to disbelieve it.)
>
> LH
>
> >
> >On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> ><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >>  OED doen't realize that "upstate" New York is "up" because it is
> north of
> >>  NYC - or north of whatever part of the state the speaker is in.
> >>
> >>  "Downstate" is comparably south,  though without beingoriented to
> any
> >>  specific location. "Downstate New York" is a rather odd-sounding
> phrase to
> >>  me, but "upstate New York" could refer in theory to any place
> north of New
> >>  York City, though I'd say it's usually restricted to the Hudson
> Valley and
> >>  immediate environs, western New York being referred
> unimaginatively to as
> >>  "Western New York State."
> >>
> >>  JL
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>  -----------------------
> >>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>  Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >>>  Subject:      Re: Origin of the term "Upstate"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>  Do you mean apart from or beyond the OED?  (Whose entries are from
> >>>  the 1989 edition.)
> >>>
> >>>  upstate, adv., adj. n.
> >>>
> >>>  orig. and chiefly U.S.
> >>>   A. adv.
> >>>
> >>>   1. In that part of a state which is (regarded as) higher than
> >>>  another, or is more remote from the chief centre. Freq. with
> >>>  reference to the State of New York.
> >>>  1901    in N. Amer. Rev. Feb. 162   American girls..imported from
> >>>  small towns up-State.
> >>>  1938    J. W. Daniels Southerner discovers South 247,   I heard about
> >>>  it upstate.
> >>>
> >>>  2. U.S. slang. In prison.
> >>>  1934    T. Wilder Heaven's my Destination 23   You get the
> >>>  strait-jacket..upstate.
> >>>
> >>>  B. adj.
> >>>    Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of, an area upstate; situated
> >>>  upstate, rural; also, designating part of a State remote (esp. north)
> >>>  from a large city, as upstate New York.
> >>>  1901    Daily Chron. 16 Sept. 3/7   All the up-State constituencies.
> >>>  1904    Collier's 16 July 16/1   The crews of the up-State college
> >>>  [Cornell].
> >>>  1935    Amer. Speech 10 107   Pronunciation in upstate New York...
> >>>  Upstate speech has been studied..by three previous investigators.
> >>>
> >>>   C. n. or ellipt.
> >>>    An upstate region; a rural area.
> >>>  1965 ...
> >>>  ----------
> >>>  downstate
> >>>
> >>>  U.S.
> >>>    The part of a State outside a large city, esp. the southern part.
> >>>  Also as adv.adj. Cf. upstate adv.Used in various parts of the U.S.
> >>>  with varying local significance.
> >>>  1909    Daily Maroon (Chicago) 2 Oct. 1/4   Springer, a husky
> >>>  full-back from down-state.
> >>>  1932    W. Faulkner Light in August iii. 58   She had gone to visit
> >>>  her people downstate.
> >>>  ----------
> >>>
> >>>  There are a number of Google Books hits for "upstate" from 1900 to
> >>>  1909 that look genuine, all seemingly for New York State.  Some
> >>>  possibly from 1841, 1850 (by Jacob Abbot, copyright page seen, author
> >>>  is right period), and 1857, also New York.  Unfortunately, many false
> >>>  positives, but the number of 1900s instances provide varying context.
> >>>  ----------
> >>>
> >>>  "Down-state" shows in the 1900s decade also, from New York.  And
> not
> >>>  surprisingly from Illinois, as early as 1901 (Public policy: A
> >>>  journal for the correct understanding of public ..., Volume 5).
> Too
> >>>  many "go down State Street" and "broken down state".
> >  >>
> >>>  Joel
> >>>
> >>>  At 5/17/2011 01:49 PM, Chris Wholers wrote:
> >>>  >This may be one of those questions that doesn't have an answer,
> but I'm
> >>>  >trying to figure out if there's any documented origin for the term
> >>>  "upstate"
> >>>  >(and "downstate" as well).  Does anyone have any idea where
> these terms
> >>>  were
> >>>  >first used?  Or any hints as to where to look?
> >>>  >
> >>>  >
> >>>  >Thanks,
> >>>  >
> >>>  >Chris
> >>>  >
> >>>  >------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> the truth."
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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