Joel S. Berson Berson at ATT.NET
Wed May 18 15:56:22 UTC 2011

Nevada:"  Apparently 7 people wrote "upstate Nevada".  Snippets:  "In
our upstate Nevada trip, we'll peel off just above Walker Lake and
head west toward Carson ... "  "Almost every evening now, after his
return from the nuclear testing grounds in upstate Nevada, Manson
would tour the gambling halls and hotels of Las Vegas. "  "...
northwestern Montana, upstate Nevada, and northern California. A
variety of acetate overlays could be pulled down from the ceiling to
illustrate particular features. The overlay diagraming the Columbia
and its dams was now in place, ... "

Utah:  Two wrote "upstate Utah".  "The old Mormon trail from upstate
Utah descended through a gap in the rock bluffs just east of town,
bringing all kinds of wayfarers besides the prospectors: emigrant
families in search of greener land ... "  There is a hint in Google
Everything that Salt Lake City and "Upstate" are a region in
common.  And about 878 people talk about "upstate Utah".

So there are areas, but I have no idea where the boundary is.  Which
way do the rivers flow?  Are there rivers?  Are the major
metropolitan areas in the north or south?  Are there any major
metropolitan areas?

Missouri:  Even here, 369 people say "upstate Missouri".  One
example:  "The old Mormon trail from upstate Utah descended through a
gap in the rock bluffs just east of town, bringing all kinds of
wayfarers besides the prospectors: emigrant families in search of
greener land ... "  Another: "Invisible Prisons takes place in a
psychiatric care facility in the winter of 2000 in snowy upstate
Missouri. ... "  From, GBooks:  "Democratic party leaders wanted to
swing upstate Missouri to the Democratic party and according to the
Missouri Republican, a coalition of Missouri and Illinois politicians
planned the establishment of two Jacksonian presses, ... "  Here
there is a hint of slave vs. free state division?  "As Gustave
Koerner commented in l833, St. Louis was "an important shipping point
as the hemp, tobacco, and corn of upstate Missouri were transported
to the city "  Agricultural differences?  Many more hits for
"east[ern]/"west[ern]" Missouri", though.

Tennessee:  "There was another parallel to Ryan's old Missouri in a
state that seemed riven by a cultural divide, with East and West
Tennesseans playing the roles of their downstate and upstate Missouri
counterparts. And here, too, sectional issues ... "  Of course,
Tennessee is longer than it is high.

In New Hampshire, Maine, and I think Vermont both the larger
settlements are in and the major river flow is to the south, so
"downstate" seems an obvious adoption.


At 5/18/2011 09:41 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote:
>The "upstate"/"downstate" usage seems clear for New York and
>Illinois.  Are there any other states where there is a metropolis or
>a relatively heavily settled area and the rest of the state is "up"
>or "down" -- Maine? New Hampshire? New Jersey? Delaware? Georgia?
>Florida? Michigan? Wisconsin? Minnesota? Louisiana? Arizona? Utah?
>Nevada? Oregon? Alaska?
>To me, the word "uptown" sometimes has a connotation of
>upscale-ness, as opposed to the grittier "downtown".  Think of the
>Billy Joel song "Uptown Girl."
>Fred Shapiro
>From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
>Michael Newman [michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:19 AM
>Subject: Re: up-state/down-state
>As a native NYC resident, for me I'd say upstate is pretty much
>anywhere north of the metro area. Since the border of the metro area
>is vague, so is the line for where upstate begins. I have heard
>people use it to refer to Westchester, but I wouldn't myself. Ex guv
>Pataki (from Peekskill in northern Westchester Co.) was sometimes
>referred as being from Upstate.  Isn't it the same, only with
>downstate for Chicago?
>Something parallel happens with Downtown and Uptown Manhattan only
>with the scale vastly reduced. Is Greenwich Village downtown?
>SoHo/Little Italy/the Lower East Side? Tribeca/Chinatown? I think
>you'd get different answers from the same person, but the amount of
>agreement on a Downtown designation would increase as the area
>referred to lies farther south on the Island. It might also increase
>if there person is or is from farther uptown.
>I never referred to Harlem as being uptown as a kid growing up in
>Queens, but when I went to High School in Manhattan I found that
>Black kids generally did. On the other hand, Washington Heights
>(which is north of Harlem) and Inwood at the northern tip would
>definitely be uptown even for me a hick from Queens.
>Michael Newman
>Associate Professor of Linguistics
>Queens College/CUNY
>michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>On May 18, 2011, at 8:45 AM, David Barnhart wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       David Barnhart <dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> > Subject:      up-state/down-state
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The "why" for up- vs. down- in the terms is suggested to have something to
> > do with river flow direction in some cases, anyway.
> >
> >
> >
> > I suggest that people take a look at:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1.)    ADS-L archives (205 messages contain _down-state_ or _downstate_,
> > although not all pertain to this discussion)
> >
> > 2.)    The entry for _down_ (B., 1), in which one quotation in particular
> > struck me:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1943 LANE map 720 .. In western Vermont and in central and western
> > Massachusetts the regional orientation is very complicated and varied. .
> >
> >
> >
> > I live in Poughkeepsie, NY, about 75 miles north of New York City
> > (approximately the same distance from Albany to our north).  I have lived
> > most of my life somewhere in the lower Hudson Valley-on the east
> bank of the
> > Hudson River.  The MetroNorth Commuter RR starts its early morning service
> > from Poughkeepsie.   I do not feel that I live "upstate".  Rhinebeck and
> > Hudson and Kingston, not very far to the north and west, seem
> upstate to me.
> > I'm not sure about Newburgh to the south on the west bank of the
> Hudson.  My
> > son, William (age 21, at last), this morning when prodded said Albany is
> > upstate to him and NYC is not downstate.  Give me a day or two and I'll
> > query some local folks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > Barnhart at highlands.com
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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