1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did it mean?
Jonathan Lighter
wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Wed Apr 25 03:39:44 UTC 2012
Did I say "Wilson"? I meant Victor, of course. It's late. Have the
solution on my desk by 9 a.m.
JL
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> A "butt" was a non-objectionable term for a cigarette (whole or partially
> consumed), but those butts don't have holes. My feeling is that no family
> paper in 1947 would have printed "butt" in the sense of buttocks under any
> circumstances. As a cigarette, no problem.
>
> Wilson, mea culpa re 1904. But the larger point remains. Namely, "What
> th'?!" The "cul de sac" exx. you cite are identical to the quote in OED.
>
> John, Archie - I believe - appeared in many papers. Do we know what the
> strip looked like in the others? If it was missing that day, that would be
> good evidence that two editors screwed up. If not, we're back where we
> started.
>
> I don't think the potential "naughtiness" of "quickie" in 1947 could be
> compared to that of "butthole." (It would be different If the phrase had
> been something like "tear off a quickie," but AFAIK that idiom is solely
> sexual and would have been caught instantly by the editor. But the editor
> should have caught "butthole" too.
>
> And why would Bob Montana want to push his luck and risk his reputation,
> perhaps even his career?
>
> The only innocuous alternative explanation seems to be that army veteran
> Montana (born 1920 to a show biz family: his mom had been a Ziegfeld girl,
> acc. to Wiki) had no conception that "butthole" might have been regarded as
> unspeakably vulgar, and neither did his editors. Is that even possible?
>
> JL
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Baker, John <JBAKER at stradley.com> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: "Baker, John" <JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM>
>> Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did it
>> mean?
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Yes, I know that "beat off" had the masturbate sense in 1968, but most
>> uses were nonsexual and did not call the masturbate sense to mind.
>> Apparently that has changed.
>>
>> With regard to "butthole," I think we can at least make a few assertions.
>>
>> 1. You should not think of comic strips in 1947 as being like comic
>> strips today. The comics were the most popular part of the paper and the
>> most thoroughly scrutinized for objectionable material. This strip was
>> seen by millions of people and dozens if not hundreds of editors. And yet,
>> at least in the papers we've seen, the strip was routinely published. It
>> follows that people simply did not find it objectionable. We may not be
>> giving enough weight to the fact that "butthole" in the modern sense is not
>> yet attested.
>>
>> 2. Well, what did it mean? At this point, it's conjectural. Jon's
>> arguments against "cul de sac" seem pretty strong. There may be some
>> significance to theatres as places that hold butts, especially since Archie
>> has had to watch the same movie many times, which I think is an important
>> factor in its meaning. "Butt" is probably less offensive when it's in the
>> sense of the seat rather than in an excretory sense.
>>
>> 3. Somewhat undercutting all of this is the point that I made in my
>> prior post, that there are two consecutive days with usages that seem to us
>> to be double entendres at best. But, while Bob Montana or the jokester may
>> have had something else in mind, they were able to pass scrutiny somehow.
>>
>>
>> John Baker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
>> Of Jonathan Lighter
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:37 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did it mean?
>>
>> In 1968 "beat off" meant just what it means now.
>>
>> The difference is that because the sexual meaning was so outrageously
>> obscene, nobody was supposed to acknowledge its existence - ever! So even
>> if a million proto-Bevis and Buttheads were snickering at the strip,
>> everyone else was expected to pretend the sexual meaning hadn't occurred
>> to
>> them.
>>
>> Nowadays, everything is expected to have a sexual significance, if
>> possible.
>>
>> I'm unconvinced by the "cul de sac" notion because the OED gives only a
>> lone 1905 example from an English rural setting. Unless Montana was
>> searching for it, I don't think he'd be aware of it as a "defensible
>> meaning," particularly as OED spells it as two words.
>>
>> I wouldn't rule out sabotage by the proverbial disgruntled employee. And
>> maybe the editorial lapse is not so odd after all: what comics editor
>> would
>> double-check "Archie" for a bad word?
>>
>> Even I can recall a time when "quickie" primarily meant a quick drink, or
>> almost anything done quickly. By the early '70s, the innocent senses were
>> fading fast. (Even now you can do "a quickie job," but that's an adj.)
>>
>> One-liners on _Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In_ (which premiered in 1967) were
>> called "quickies." They were accompanied by body-painted girls in bikinis
>> dancing the frug. But that kind of equivocal pun can't compare to
>> "butthole" in a comic strip in a family newspaper in 1947.
>>
>> Here's a surprise, from 1904:
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=O6IrAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA14&dq=butthole&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EkOXT_HoFpKbtwfkzPXXAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=butthole&f=false
>>
>> The word is being used by telegraph operators as a quickie code for a
>> mining company. Go figure, especially since the far more "defensible"
>> "bunghole" doesn't make the list. Other than the OED ex., it's the only
>> ex.
>> of "butthole" in any sense that GB produces before 1950.
>>
>> In fact, GB shows virtually no other plausible ex. of "butthole" (except
>> in
>> a rural English place name), before 1962. The single exception is from the
>> journal _Veneers and Plywood_ (apparently 1952), which refers casually to
>> a
>> hole in a tree trunk as a "butt hole."
>>
>> Does the arboreal "butt hole" or something similar appear in the 1934 W2?
>> Conceivably Montana heard the word as he uses it, then checked to see if
>> there was an innocent meaning, then went ahead and printed it. But, as I
>> inquired before, why risk trouble?
>>
>> In any case, the lack of further exx. of _butthole_ *'disagreeable' seems
>> significant. Of what, I'm not sure.
>>
>> File under "The Indeterminate" - in The Twilight Zone....
>>
>> JL
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Baker, John <JBAKER at stradley.com> wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: "Baker, John" <JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM>
>> > Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did it
>> > mean?
>> >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Here's my theory: Someone (a jokester clerical employee at the
>> > syndicate? A disgruntled assistant? Bob Montana himself?) was playing
>> > around with language, using a then obscure off-color reference that also
>> > had a defensible legitimate meaning. In this case, the defensible
>> meaning
>> > is "dead end" (nobody said "cul de sac" in 1947).
>> >
>> > Why do I think it's a jokester? On the surface, the idea that
>> it's
>> > a surprising but innocent use has a certain appeal. Certainly there are
>> > plenty of other cases that may seem obscene to us but were innocent when
>> > used. Another Archie example is a comic book from 1968,
>> > http://www.comicbookdaily.com/daily_news/sleepy-cendor-12/, in which
>> > Archie has just rescued a bikini-clad Betty. She asks, "Archie, did you
>> > have any trouble rescuing me?" and he replies, "I sure did Betty! I had
>> to
>> > BEAT OFF three other guys!" We see them in the background, bearing
>> > bruises. "Beat off" meant one thing in 1968, but another thing today.
>> >
>> > Here's my evidence, based on a find by a poster at the Straight
>> > Dope Message Board. The very next day, Archie is in his usher's
>> uniform.
>> > In the first panel,
>> >
>> http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=q1AsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E8sEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3431%2C183360
>> ,
>> > another usher says "Archie! The manager said you can take off _30_
>> > minutes!" Archie replies, "Swell! I can hop over to the Chok'lit Shop
>> for
>> > a quickie!" In 1947, "quickie" could mean a quick drink (a soda is
>> shown
>> > in the last panel), but it also could have the current meaning of a
>> quick
>> > sexual act.
>> >
>> >
>> > John Baker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>> Behalf
>> > Of Jonathan Lighter
>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:22 AM
>> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did it
>> mean?
>> >
>> > This mystifies me, in part because I've never encountered "butthole"
>> > used predicatively in any sense. Has anybody?
>> >
>> > HDAS has literal, vulgar "butthole" from 1951, but since "butt" is
>> > documented as the human buttocks from the 18th C. (OED does a poor job
>> > here), there can be little doubt it is far older.
>> >
>> > So editors in 1947 would have understood the word anatomically exactly
>> as
>> > we do.
>> >
>> > A large part of the mystery, then, is how the word slipped passed the
>> > editors. How many papers ran this particular strip? A second question
>> is
>> > how "butthole" got into the strip in the first place. I wouldn't rule
>> out
>> > sabotage quite yet.
>> >
>> > Surely Bob Montana (a WWII veteran) must have been aware of the
>> > implications of "butthole," even if he'd never heard the word used.
>> >
>> > Even if he'd actually heard somebody use "butthole" to mean "unpleasant;
>> > boring," I can't imagine why he'd want to risk stirring up trouble for
>> > himself. (Its counterpart, "prime," sounds to me like typical teen
>> lingo
>> > of 1947.)
>> >
>> > Finally, somebody in the Boing Boing discussion calls Archie a
>> "cockfart."
>> > That seems unfairly judgmental.
>> >
>> > JL
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Garson O'Toole
>> > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > > -----------------------
>> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > > Poster: Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>> > > Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did
>> it
>> > > mean?
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >
>> > > A commenter at Boing Boing named Robert Baruch noted that there are
>> > > citations in Google Books that associate a "butt hole" with a cul de
>> > > sac. (See below.) Archie's phrase "Oh, it gets kinda butthole at
>> > > times" may be referring to some metaphorical sense of a cul de sac.
>> > > Perhaps Archie feels confined, trapped, bored, and/or optionless. A
>> > > cul de sac is a dead end, so one might say it is a dead-end job, but
>> > > that meaning doesn't quite match the meaning suggested by the comic
>> > > strip.
>> > >
>> > > Cite: 1912 November 16, The Living Age, Different Dog Days by Horace
>> > > Hutchinson, Start Page 444, Quote Page 445, The Living Age Company,
>> > > Boston. (Google Books full view)
>> > > http://books.google.com/books?id=oDdrJisSXdEC&q=butt-hole#v=snippet&
>> > >
>> > > [Begin excerpt]
>> > > But our idea of a badger hunt was to send a dog up to the badger
>> > > underground, to keep the brock occupied in a "butt-hole" - that is to
>> > > say, a cul de sac in the ramifications of the great bury - while we
>> > > digged across that particular tunnel and so cut him off from access to
>> > > his many galleries and mansions; after which we could dig straight up
>> > > to him at leisure.
>> > > [End excerpt]
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Cite: 1898 May 28, Country Life Illustrated, Badger-Hunting, Start
>> > > Page 669, Quote Page 670, Hudson & Kearns, London. (Google Books full
>> > > view)
>> > >
>> >
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=mlBOAAAAYAAJ&q=%22butt+hole%22#v=snippet&
>> > >
>> > > [Begin excerpt]
>> > > Then the conclusion is "They've a got the old badger up into a butt
>> > > hole." This means that he can go no further, except over the body of
>> > > the assailing dog; and now it is time for the picks and spades, and
>> > > the diggers' work.
>> > > [End excerpt]
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Ben Zimmer
>> > > <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > > -----------------------
>> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > > > Poster: Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
>> > > > Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What
>> did
>> > > it mean?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Baker, John <JBAKER at stradley.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Sam Clements said:
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Google News hit, posted over at Straight Dope by an alert reader.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=plAsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E8sEAAAAIBAJ&dq=calendar-girl&pg=4081%2C91102
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Betty says to Archie "Being an usher after school must be
>> prime."
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Archie replies "Oh, it gets kinda butthole at times."
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > How would this get by a censor if it had a modern meaning? What
>> did
>> > > it
>> > > >> > mean in the context of the times? Not in the OED as such that I
>> > could
>> > > find.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I suspect vandalism. Has it been checked against the same comic in
>> > > >> a different newspaper?
>> > > >
>> > > > It checks out -- Newspaperarchive has the same strip in the Elyria
>> (OH)
>> > > > Chronicle-Telegram, Apr. 2, 1947.
>> > > >
>> > > > Further discussion on BoingBoing:
>> > > >
>> > > > http://boingboing.net/2012/04/22/do-you-kiss-betty-andor-veron.html
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --bgz
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Ben Zimmer
>> > > > http://benzimmer.com/
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
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