origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Paul Johnston]

Don't forget  that TH-stopping isn't unique to NYC.  It's found in nearly every large, industrial Northern city I can think of--and they all attracted a multitude of ethnic groups without theta or eth, so which group started it isn't easy to determine.   NYC does have more dentalization of apico-alveolar consonants than most (though I associate the extension to all /t d n/ with Italian-Americans within this area), but Philly also does this, at least.

Paul Johnston
On Feb 12, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I thought the Dutch in the now-city were more "urbane" (traders and
> craftsmen) and the ones on the river were farmers. The patrician estates
> came later, as the earlier settlers claimed primacy over the later ones.
> There is a recent article (2005) connecting American porches to
> Old-World Dutch architecture, spreading from the Hudson Valley out. It
> might be useful in getting at some of that history. http://goo.gl/x9qIN
>
>     VS-)
>
> NB: The link is only to the first page in JSTOR. Most libraries do not
> subscribe to Winterhur Portfolio, so the article may have to be obtained
> through ILL, if you need it.
>
> On 2/12/2012 2:15 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>> At 2/12/2012 01:49 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote:
>>> Wouldn't lack of these features in Downstate speech be sufficient to
>>> negate the Dutch theory? If Dutch influence were responsible, shouldn't
>>> it be heard all along the Hudson?
>> Because the Dutch in the Hudson River Valley were patrician
>> landholders of vast estates, and the Dutch in New York City were the
>> lower sorts?  (I've lost track of where "it" is heard  -- NYC, up
>> river, or both.)
>>
>> Joel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org