origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Michael Newman]

If there was a feature X that existed in 17th Century Dutch and was found preferably in other Dutch influenced dialects, like South African English, and was documented in NYCE and the Hudson Valley from the beginning and nowhere else in US English (except in an area with migrants speaking a language with the same feature), then it would be reasonable to conclude that it at least partially was owed to Dutch substrate. The fewer of these criteria that are met the less confident.

Same for German, but the feature would then have to date from the generation after the first heavy German migration and be found only in areas of heavy German migration. ɾiɡhtʔ


This wouldn't preclude the influence of other sources.

But I don't think that any such features exist. I'd love to find out I'm wrong. It makes a better story.

BTW, it's definitely [spaitn daɪvl]. and I went to [staɪvəsənt] hiɡh school.

Michael Newman
Associate Professor of Linguistics
Queens College/CUNY
michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu



On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence outside of lexicon?
>
> And how could you be sure?
>
> JL
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman
> <michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Michael Newman <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Michael Newman
>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>> Queens College/CUNY
>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>
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>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
>>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
>>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the General
>>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
>>> whatsoever.
>>> DanG
>>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
>>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a particular
>>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
>>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
>>>>
>>>> JL
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older Black speakers =
>>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much to do with =
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce /@r/ as /oi/ =
>>>>> or /ui/.
>>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover from Dutc
>>>>>
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>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
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