origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Dan Goncharoff]

Why would modern day Dutch or German be relevant? Wouldn't one need to
consider the Dutch of 400-300 years ago, and the German of 200-150
years ago?
DanG



On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at wmich.edu> wrote:
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Certainly not in NYC vowels, or not without reinforcement from other =
> groups.  As for [@i]:
>
> 1.  The [@i] in bird etc. might conceivably have come from either Dutch =
> <ui> =3D [=9CY~=E6Y] or <eu> =3D [=F8Y]--except that Dutch <ui, uy> is =
> usually taken in as [aI] (it is Spuyten Duyvil =3D [spaItn daIvl], isn't =
> it?  At least, that's how this suburban boy learned it; cf. the usual =
> pronunciation of Stuyvesant, Schuyler etc.).  Jersey Dutch texts spell =
> it [a"u], and it isn't clear what that means--but it looks like [EY] or =
> [=E6Y], the latter being common in broad Amsterdam of the present day.  =
> Closer to [aI] than [@i] in any case.
>
>> 2.  The diphthongal reflexes of <eu> =3D [=F8:~=F8y] can't be a source =
> either.  For one, the diphthongal reflexes of the high-mid vowels, I =
> think, came about later than the 17c.  For two, Breukelen became =
> Brooklyn with [U].  I've heard New Yorkers pronounce Modern Dutch <eu> =
> with [@r] in personal names (my dad had a Dutch colleague named Van =
> Heukelom, which was [v=E6n   h at rk@l at m] to him however.
>
> 3.  In Hollandic of the present day, certain /Vr/ combinations--but only =
> in final position--have a strongly palatalized approximant /r/, which =
> can turn into an /i/ in broad vernacular varieties.  This certainly =
> affects /a:r/, /o:r/ and /u:r/, and I think [=F8:r] too.  But (1) this =
> is another recent change--it's not even in the 20th c. dialect =
> atlases--or at least not the Reeks Nederlandse Dialektatlassen; and (2) =
> final position is precisely NOT where you get [@i].  Instead you get =
> [^:].
>
> 4.  The only expression I can think of with real good NY Dutch vowels is =
> Santa Claus, from Zeelandic [sEnt@ klO:s] rather than Std Dutch [sInt@ =
> kla:s].
>
> Paul Johnston
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman wrote:
>
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>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Michael Newman <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>> =
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>>=20
>> Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence outside =
> of lexicon?
>> Michael Newman
>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>> Queens College/CUNY
>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>=20
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>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>=20
>>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
>>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
>>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the =
> General
>>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
>>> whatsoever.
>>> DanG
>>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
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>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>> =
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> -----
>>>>=20
>>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
>>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a particular
>>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
>>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
>>>>=20
>>>> JL
>>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters =
> <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
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>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>>> =
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> -----
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older Black =
> speakers =3D
>>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much to do =
> with =3D
>>>>> it.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce /@r/ as =
> /oi/ =3D
>>>>> or /ui/.
>>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
>>>>>> =3D20
>>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover from =
> Dutc
>>>>>=20
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>>>>=20
>>>>=20
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