origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Jonathan Lighter]

About "influence."

Let's not confuse the probability of some Dutch/German/Yiddish/Irish
etc. phonological *influence* on "the" English of City X with some
posited *detectable* influence.

With, say, a half dozen fairly distinct dialects in everyday use over
decades or centuries, almost any specific influence is possible and
almost none is provable or even likely.

I speak of phonology, though syntactical influences may be just as
obscure in most cases.

JL

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I too was taught to say "Spuyten Duyvil" with /aI /, in NYC public
> school in the 1950s.
>
> I've never heard it pronounced any other way.
>
> JL
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>>Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence outside of lexicon?
>>
>> And how could you be sure?
>>
>> JL
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman
>> <michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Michael Newman <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Newman
>>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>>> Queens College/CUNY
>>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
>>>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
>>>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the General
>>>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
>>>> whatsoever.
>>>> DanG
>>>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
>>>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a particular
>>>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
>>>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
>>>>>
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
>>>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older Black speakers =
>>>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much to do with =
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce /@r/ as /oi/ =
>>>>>> or /ui/.
>>>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover from Dutc
>>>>>>
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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