origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

Tue Feb 14 00:52:16 UTC 2012

Pretty close -- Brooklynites don't roll their 'r's like the Dutch, but
the beginning is spot on.
DanG

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>
>> I went to Stuyvesant, also.
>>=20
>> Before that, I went to the Brooklyn Friends School on Schermerhorn
>> Street in Brooklyn. Schermerhorn is still pronounced the Dutch way in
>> Brooklyn. Does that count?
>> DanG
>>=20
>>=20
>
> I for one would be incredulous and find it incredible--and maybe even =
> vice versa--to hear even one Brooklynite pronounce the street name with =
> the initial [sx] cluster it has in Dutch.  I couldn't find that on the =
> web, but here's someone sounding very Dutch saying "Schermer", without =
> the "Horn" (which I'd be happy to provide):
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Nl-Schermer.ogg
>
> LH
>>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Michael Newman
>> <michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
> -----------------------
>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Michael Newman =
> <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>=20
>>> If there was a feature X that existed in 17th Century Dutch and was =
> found preferably in other Dutch influenced dialects, like South African =
> English, and was documented in NYCE and the Hudson Valley from the =
> beginning and nowhere else in US English (except in an area with =
> migrants speaking a language with the same feature), then it would be =
> reasonable to conclude that it at least partially was owed to Dutch =
> substrate. The fewer of these criteria that are met the less confident.
>>>=20
>>> Same for German, but the feature would then have to date from the =
> generation after the first heavy German migration and be found only in =
> areas of heavy German migration. =C3=A5=E2=88=9A i=C3=A4=CF=80=C4=B1ht=C3=A8=
> =EF=A3=BF=C2=AF
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This wouldn't preclude the influence of other sources.
>>>=20
>>> But I don't think that any such features exist. I'd love to find out =
> I'm wrong. It makes a better story.
>>>=20
>>> BTW, it's definitely [spaitn da=C3=A7=C5=92=C6=92vl]. and I went to =
> [sta=C3=A7=C5=92=C6=92v=C3=A8=E2=80=9E=E2=80=99s=C3=A8=E2=80=9E=E2=80=99nt=
> ] hi=C3=A4=CF=80=C4=B1h school.
>>>=20
>>> Michael Newman
>>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>>> Queens College/CUNY
>>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Jonathan Lighter =
> <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>>=20
>>>>> Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence =
> outside of lexicon?
>>>>=20
>>>> And how could you be sure?
>>>>=20
>>>> JL
>>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman
>>>> <michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Michael Newman =
> <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Michael Newman
>>>>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>>>>> Queens College/CUNY
>>>>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Dan Goncharoff =
> <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in =
> NYCE
>>>>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
>>>>>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
>>>>>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the =
> General
>>>>>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
>>>>>> whatsoever.
>>>>>> DanG
>>>>>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Jonathan Lighter =
> <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in =
> NYCE
>>>>>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
>>>>>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a =
> particular
>>>>>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
>>>>>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters =
> <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
> -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Ronald Butters =
> <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
>>>>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in =
> NYCE
>>>>>>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older Black =
> speakers =3D
>>>>>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much to =
> do with =3D
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce /@r/ =
> as /oi/ =3D
>>>>>>>> or /ui/.
>>>>>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
>>>>>>>>> =3D20
>>>>>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover =
> from Dutc
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle =
> the truth."
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the =
> truth."
>>>>=20
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>=20
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org