origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

Tue Feb 14 01:43:27 UTC 2012

Some of the source dialects (North Hollandic) had /sk/, as New Yorkers have.

Paul Johnston
On Feb 13, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Pretty close -- Brooklynites don't roll their 'r's like the Dutch, but
> the beginning is spot on.
> DanG
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>
>>> I went to Stuyvesant, also.
>>> =20
>>> Before that, I went to the Brooklyn Friends School on Schermerhorn
>>> Street in Brooklyn. Schermerhorn is still pronounced the Dutch way in
>>> Brooklyn. Does that count?
>>> DanG
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>
>> I for one would be incredulous and find it incredible--and maybe even =
>> vice versa--to hear even one Brooklynite pronounce the street name with =
>> the initial [sx] cluster it has in Dutch.  I couldn't find that on the =
>> web, but here's someone sounding very Dutch saying "Schermer", without =
>> the "Horn" (which I'd be happy to provide):
>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Nl-Schermer.ogg
>>
>> LH
>>> =20
>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Michael Newman
>>> <michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
>> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Michael Newman =
>> <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>> =
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> -----
>>>> =20
>>>> If there was a feature X that existed in 17th Century Dutch and was =
>> found preferably in other Dutch influenced dialects, like South African =
>> English, and was documented in NYCE and the Hudson Valley from the =
>> beginning and nowhere else in US English (except in an area with =
>> migrants speaking a language with the same feature), then it would be =
>> reasonable to conclude that it at least partially was owed to Dutch =
>> substrate. The fewer of these criteria that are met the less confident.
>>>> =20
>>>> Same for German, but the feature would then have to date from the =
>> generation after the first heavy German migration and be found only in =
>> areas of heavy German migration. =C3=A5=E2=88=9A i=C3=A4=CF=80=C4=B1ht=C3=A8=
>> =EF=A3=BF=C2=AF
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> This wouldn't preclude the influence of other sources.
>>>> =20
>>>> But I don't think that any such features exist. I'd love to find out =
>> I'm wrong. It makes a better story.
>>>> =20
>>>> BTW, it's definitely [spaitn da=C3=A7=C5=92=C6=92vl]. and I went to =
>> [sta=C3=A7=C5=92=C6=92v=C3=A8=E2=80=9E=E2=80=99s=C3=A8=E2=80=9E=E2=80=99nt=
>> ] hi=C3=A4=CF=80=C4=B1h school.
>>>> =20
>>>> Michael Newman
>>>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>>>> Queens College/CUNY
>>>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
>> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Jonathan Lighter =
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>>> =
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> -----
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence =
>> outside of lexicon?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> And how could you be sure?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> JL
>>>>> =20
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman
>>>>> <michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
>> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Michael Newman =
>> <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
>>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>>>> =
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> -----
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Michael Newman
>>>>>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>>>>>> Queens College/CUNY
>>>>>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
>> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Dan Goncharoff =
>> <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in =
>> NYCE
>>>>>>> =
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> -----
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
>>>>>>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
>>>>>>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the =
>> General
>>>>>>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
>>>>>>> whatsoever.
>>>>>>> DanG
>>>>>>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
>> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Jonathan Lighter =
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in =
>> NYCE
>>>>>>>> =
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> -----
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
>>>>>>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a =
>> particular
>>>>>>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
>>>>>>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters =
>> <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>>> Sender: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  American Dialect Society =
>> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>>> Poster: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82  Ronald Butters =
>> <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: =C3=82  =C3=82  =C3=82 Re: origin of dese dem dose in =
>> NYCE
>>>>>>>>> =
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> -----
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older Black =
>> speakers =3D
>>>>>>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much to =
>> do with =3D
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce /@r/ =
>> as /oi/ =3D
>>>>>>>>> or /ui/.
>>>>>>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
>>>>>>>>>> =3D20
>>>>>>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover =
>> from Dutc
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle =
>> the truth."
>>>>>>>> =20
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>>>>>> =20
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>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> --
>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the =
>> truth."
>>>>> =20
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>>>> =20
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>>> =20
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>>
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