dodge Pompey
Dan Goncharoff
thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Mon Jul 2 18:56:11 UTC 2012
Let me start by acknowledging that I don't know the answer.
We know that the phrase eventually meant avoiding work, but we don't when
that began.
We also have in the original cites a clear description of ducking
cannonballs referred to as dodging Pompey. Most of the other cites are, to
me, too vague, including the lanterns. I don't see any of the other cites
supporting the notion that dodging Pompey refers to moving lanterns, unless
there is a good reason for British sailors to avoid the lights of a British
port. Thus my question. Where's the circular reasoning?
DanG
On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
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> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 7/2/2012 02:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >I see only one clear reference to lanterns, and that refers to lanterns
> >that don't work, so they dodge Pompey,
> >
> >Who would be trying to dodge the lights of Portsmouth? An impressed sailor
> >trying to escape by sea?
>
> Dan, isn't the above circular reasoning -- it assumes the origin of
> the "dodge" in "dodging Pompey" is "trying to avoid something", and
> then concludes that "dodging Pompey" is "trying to escape Portsmouth"?
>
> Rather, what I am wondering is whether "dodging Pompey" originally
> had something to do with "dodging" lanterns at Portsmouth, and then
> got transferred or generalized to "avoiding work". See Stephen
> Goranson's 1836 find -- might it refer to moving (something) to and
> fro, another sense of "dodge", and a failure thereof (the dodged
> lanterns at Portsmouth didn't work)?
>
> Or -- why "dodging Pompey" (dodging Portsmouth?) in particular,
> rather than, say "dodging [avoiding] swabbing", or "bilge-pumping",
> or some other unpleasant naval task?
>
> Perhaps Pompey was simply some legendary, notoriously harsh bosun?
>
> Joel
>
>
> >DanG
> >
> >
> >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > While we're supposing, I still prefer something to do with signaling
> > > lanterns at Portsmouth port.
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > At 7/2/2012 01:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > >There may be two distinct connections.
> > > >
> > > >Several of the cites use "dodging Pompey" in the context of avoiding
> > > >something coming from enemy boats -- cannon balls? A form of Greek
> fire?
> > > >The French tended to fire high, so their cannon fire would look more
> like
> > > >the rocks propelled by a volcano. (The Dutch, and the English
> themselves,
> > > >fired low, into the body of the ships.) Could dodging Pompey
> originally
> > > >mean dodging enemy cannon balls fired high?
> > > >
> > > >"Dodging Pompey" in the context of work might then be a later
> development,
> > > >influenced by the earlier phrase, or the French prison ship, or the
> > > >nickname for Portsmouth, or all of the above.
> > > >
> > > >And then there's Measure for Measure...
> > > >
> > > >DanG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, but my question is really about the connection of "dodging"
> with
> > > > > "Pompey."
> > > > >
> > > > > Joel
> > > > >
> > > > > At 7/2/2012 10:03 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > > >I know nine reasons:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >http://www.welcometoportsmouth.co.uk/pompey.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >7 is my favorite, followed by 8. 8, however, makes more sense for
> > > "dodging
> > > > > >Pompey".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Ships entering Portsmouth harbour make an entry in the
> ships log
> > > > > *Pom.
> > > > > > P.* as a reference to *Portsmouth Point* (this being too
> long).
> > > > > > Navigational charts also use this abbreviation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - *La Pompee* was a captured French ship moored in Portsmouth
> > > harbour
> > > > > > and used for prison accommodation, (captured 1793 and broken
> up
> > > 1817).
> > > > > > There is a Yorkshire term pompey for prison or house of
> > > correction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >DanG
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> > > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 6/29/2012 05:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > > > > >Couldn't the reference to the lantern "playing 'dodge Pompey'"
> > > simply
> > > > > be a
> > > > > > > >way of saying the lantern wouldn't work when needed?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suppose so, but aren't we still at a loss as to why "Pompey"
> and
> > > > > > > whether there is a relationship to Portsmouth?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Several of the references do seem to imply avoiding danger
> > > instead of
> > > > > > > work,
> > > > > > > >and they are older.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >DanG
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson <
> Berson at att.net>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <
> ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So a sense related to ships signaling precedes "avoiding
> work"?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Portsmouth was certainly a significant British naval base
> (and
> > > > > > > > > commercial ship port) in the 18th and 19th centuries.
> Finding
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > passage in would be important. A lantern had a shutter
> > > (perhaps
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > called a "screen"?; see 1838 quote below). Would they be
> > > "dodged",
> > > > > > > > > moved to reveal or shut off the beam, in order to signal?
> Did
> > > > > "dodge
> > > > > > > > > Pompey" mean something like "avoid Portsmouth", for some
> > > reason or
> > > > > > > > > purpose, by manipulating a lantern? ("dodge" sense 1 --
> "a. To
> > > > > move
> > > > > > > > > to and fro, or backwards and forwards ..." [of a person],
> > > 1704-;
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > sense 6, "To move (a thing) to and fro, or up and down
> ...",
> > > 1820-,
> > > > > > > > > close to the earliest "dodge Pompey" quotations below.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joel
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At 6/27/2012 07:46 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >I was attempting again to find how Portsmouth, England
> got the
> > > > > > > > > >nickname Pompey (OED has it from 1899), and so far, failed
> > > again.
> > > > > > > > > >There are many proposals. Anyway, here are some
> antedatings
> > > (OED
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > >1929) for dodging Pompey (one of which, merely
> coincidentally,
> > > > > > > > > >involves the US ship Portsmouth); dodging Pompey may have
> > > played
> > > > > > > > > >some role in the Portsmouth nickname origin--or not.
> (Green's,
> > > > > > > > > >unchecked.) They may not all fit OED's dodge v 13 sense
> (a) to
> > > > > evade
> > > > > > > > > >work (Naval slang).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >1836 Ben Brace; the last of Nelson's Agamemnons. Capt.
> > > Chamier
> > > > > RN.
> > > > > > > > > >v. 1 p. 295 (HT)
> > > > > > > > > >[in rough seas] We tried a signal or two, but it was no
> > > use--the
> > > > > > > > > >lanterns were playing 'dodge Pompey,' and the lights were
> out
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > >the signal could be made.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >1838 [1853 ed.] Jack Adams, the mutineer. Capt. F.
> Chamier,
> > > RN.
> > > > > p.145
> > > > > > > > > col. 1
> > > > > > > > > >Have I ever played dodge Pompey behind a screen when
> danger
> > > was
> > > > > near?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >1841 Tom Bowling: A tale of the sea. v.3 (HT)
> > > > > > > > > >Smith was a regular dodge Pompey
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >1845-1847, published 1958. The Cruise of the Portsmouth,
> > > > > 1845-1847:
> > > > > > > > > >A Sailor's View of the Naval Conquest of California.
> Joseph T.
> > > > > > > > > >Downey, USN; ed. Howard Lamar. Yale UP. (paper)
> > > > > > > > > >I have found out that dodging Pompey is a good thing,
> dodging
> > > is
> > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > >trade, and I am as good a dodger as any he [sic] in
> > > California,
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > >keep your eyes on their Big Guns, and when you see the
> flash,
> > > fall
> > > > > > > > > >down where you stand, and don't rose again till you hear
> the
> > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > >whistle over your heads;....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >1847 Cruise of the Graceful; or, The Robbers of Carracas,
> by
> > > > > Captain
> > > > > > > > > >Barnacle, U.S.N. (C.M. Newell?) p. 5, col. 1 (HT)
> > > > > > > > > >....I never seed so much _dodging pompey_ in all my
> sailoring
> > > as I
> > > > > > > > > >have these two weeks past.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >1880 Captain Tom Drake; or, England's hearts of oak. W. L.
> > > Emmett.
> > > > > > > > > >p. 7 col. 1
> > > > > > > > > >"I've put a question to you, now I wants the answer; now
> > > then, out
> > > > > > > > > >with it, none of your tack and half tack, and dodging
> Pompey
> > > round
> > > > > > > > > >the long boat, let's have it...."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >1899 The log of a sea-waif... Frank T. Bullen, p.292 (GB)
> > > > > > > > > >They killed time in a variety of ways, making believe to
> do
> > > some
> > > > > > > > > >work, but principally occupied in "dodging Pompey."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Stephen Goranson
> > > > > > > > > >www.duke.edu/~goranson <http://www.duke.edu/%7Egoranson>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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