dodge Pompey
Joel S. Berson
Berson at ATT.NET
Mon Jul 2 19:24:55 UTC 2012
At 7/2/2012 02:56 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>Let me start by acknowledging that I don't know the answer.
Certainly I don't.
>We know that the phrase eventually meant avoiding work, but we don't when
>that began.
>
>We also have in the original cites a clear description of ducking
>cannonballs referred to as dodging Pompey.
True. But (and see below), this is avoiding danger, not avoiding work.
>Most of the other cites are, to
>me, too vague, including the lanterns.
Vague, agreed -- But there must be something behind Stephen's two
earliest quotations:
>1836 Ben Brace; the last of Nelson's Agamemnons. Capt. Chamier RN.
>v. 1 p. 295 (HT)
>[in rough seas] We tried a signal or two, but it was no use--the
>lanterns were playing 'dodge Pompey,' and the lights were out before
>the signal could be made.
Would lanterns have been avoiding (dodging) work? Metaphorically, by
not working properly? I suppose perhaps.
>1838 [1853 ed.] Jack Adams, the mutineer. Capt. F. Chamier, RN. p.145 col. 1
>Have I ever played dodge Pompey behind a screen when danger was near?
Since this is on-line (GBooks); perhaps additional context may
suggest something (but not much to me!). Although it's avoiding
danger, not work.
Finally, we seem to have no idea why "dodging" became associated with
"Pompey". "Dodge" = "evade" or = "move to and fro"? (The latter is
why I wondered about naval signaling lanterns and the port.)
Joel
>I don't see any of the other cites
>supporting the notion that dodging Pompey refers to moving lanterns, unless
>there is a good reason for British sailors to avoid the lights of a British
>port. Thus my question. Where's the circular reasoning?
>
>DanG
>
>
>On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > At 7/2/2012 02:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > >I see only one clear reference to lanterns, and that refers to lanterns
> > >that don't work, so they dodge Pompey,
> > >
> > >Who would be trying to dodge the lights of Portsmouth? An impressed sailor
> > >trying to escape by sea?
> >
> > Dan, isn't the above circular reasoning -- it assumes the origin of
> > the "dodge" in "dodging Pompey" is "trying to avoid something", and
> > then concludes that "dodging Pompey" is "trying to escape Portsmouth"?
> >
> > Rather, what I am wondering is whether "dodging Pompey" originally
> > had something to do with "dodging" lanterns at Portsmouth, and then
> > got transferred or generalized to "avoiding work". See Stephen
> > Goranson's 1836 find -- might it refer to moving (something) to and
> > fro, another sense of "dodge", and a failure thereof (the dodged
> > lanterns at Portsmouth didn't work)?
> >
> > Or -- why "dodging Pompey" (dodging Portsmouth?) in particular,
> > rather than, say "dodging [avoiding] swabbing", or "bilge-pumping",
> > or some other unpleasant naval task?
> >
> > Perhaps Pompey was simply some legendary, notoriously harsh bosun?
> >
> > Joel
> >
> >
> > >DanG
> > >
> > >
> > >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > While we're supposing, I still prefer something to do with signaling
> > > > lanterns at Portsmouth port.
> > > > Joel
> > > >
> > > > At 7/2/2012 01:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > >There may be two distinct connections.
> > > > >
> > > > >Several of the cites use "dodging Pompey" in the context of avoiding
> > > > >something coming from enemy boats -- cannon balls? A form of Greek
> > fire?
> > > > >The French tended to fire high, so their cannon fire would look more
> > like
> > > > >the rocks propelled by a volcano. (The Dutch, and the English
> > themselves,
> > > > >fired low, into the body of the ships.) Could dodging Pompey
> > originally
> > > > >mean dodging enemy cannon balls fired high?
> > > > >
> > > > >"Dodging Pompey" in the context of work might then be a later
> > development,
> > > > >influenced by the earlier phrase, or the French prison ship, or the
> > > > >nickname for Portsmouth, or all of the above.
> > > > >
> > > > >And then there's Measure for Measure...
> > > > >
> > > > >DanG
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, but my question is really about the connection of "dodging"
> > with
> > > > > > "Pompey."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 7/2/2012 10:03 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > > > >I know nine reasons:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >http://www.welcometoportsmouth.co.uk/pompey.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >7 is my favorite, followed by 8. 8, however, makes more sense for
> > > > "dodging
> > > > > > >Pompey".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Ships entering Portsmouth harbour make an entry in the
> > ships log
> > > > > > *Pom.
> > > > > > > P.* as a reference to *Portsmouth Point* (this being too
> > long).
> > > > > > > Navigational charts also use this abbreviation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - *La Pompee* was a captured French ship moored in Portsmouth
> > > > harbour
> > > > > > > and used for prison accommodation, (captured 1793 and broken
> > up
> > > > 1817).
> > > > > > > There is a Yorkshire term pompey for prison or house of
> > > > correction.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >DanG
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >
> > > > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At 6/29/2012 05:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > > > > > >Couldn't the reference to the lantern "playing 'dodge Pompey'"
> > > > simply
> > > > > > be a
> > > > > > > > >way of saying the lantern wouldn't work when needed?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I suppose so, but aren't we still at a loss as to why "Pompey"
> > and
> > > > > > > > whether there is a relationship to Portsmouth?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Joel
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Several of the references do seem to imply avoiding danger
> > > > instead of
> > > > > > > > work,
> > > > > > > > >and they are older.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >DanG
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson <
> > Berson at att.net>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <
> > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So a sense related to ships signaling precedes "avoiding
> > work"?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Portsmouth was certainly a significant British naval base
> > (and
> > > > > > > > > > commercial ship port) in the 18th and 19th centuries.
> > Finding
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > passage in would be important. A lantern had a shutter
> > > > (perhaps
> > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > called a "screen"?; see 1838 quote below). Would they be
> > > > "dodged",
> > > > > > > > > > moved to reveal or shut off the beam, in order to signal?
> > Did
> > > > > > "dodge
> > > > > > > > > > Pompey" mean something like "avoid Portsmouth", for some
> > > > reason or
> > > > > > > > > > purpose, by manipulating a lantern? ("dodge" sense 1 --
> > "a. To
> > > > > > move
> > > > > > > > > > to and fro, or backwards and forwards ..." [of a person],
> > > > 1704-;
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > sense 6, "To move (a thing) to and fro, or up and down
> > ...",
> > > > 1820-,
> > > > > > > > > > close to the earliest "dodge Pompey" quotations below.)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Joel
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > At 6/27/2012 07:46 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >I was attempting again to find how Portsmouth, England
> > got the
> > > > > > > > > > >nickname Pompey (OED has it from 1899), and so far, failed
> > > > again.
> > > > > > > > > > >There are many proposals. Anyway, here are some
> > antedatings
> > > > (OED
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > >1929) for dodging Pompey (one of which, merely
> > coincidentally,
> > > > > > > > > > >involves the US ship Portsmouth); dodging Pompey may have
> > > > played
> > > > > > > > > > >some role in the Portsmouth nickname origin--or not.
> > (Green's,
> > > > > > > > > > >unchecked.) They may not all fit OED's dodge v 13 sense
> > (a) to
> > > > > > evade
> > > > > > > > > > >work (Naval slang).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >1836 Ben Brace; the last of Nelson's Agamemnons. Capt.
> > > > Chamier
> > > > > > RN.
> > > > > > > > > > >v. 1 p. 295 (HT)
> > > > > > > > > > >[in rough seas] We tried a signal or two, but it was no
> > > > use--the
> > > > > > > > > > >lanterns were playing 'dodge Pompey,' and the lights were
> > out
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > >the signal could be made.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >1838 [1853 ed.] Jack Adams, the mutineer. Capt. F.
> > Chamier,
> > > > RN.
> > > > > > p.145
> > > > > > > > > > col. 1
> > > > > > > > > > >Have I ever played dodge Pompey behind a screen when
> > danger
> > > > was
> > > > > > near?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >1841 Tom Bowling: A tale of the sea. v.3 (HT)
> > > > > > > > > > >Smith was a regular dodge Pompey
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >1845-1847, published 1958. The Cruise of the Portsmouth,
> > > > > > 1845-1847:
> > > > > > > > > > >A Sailor's View of the Naval Conquest of California.
> > Joseph T.
> > > > > > > > > > >Downey, USN; ed. Howard Lamar. Yale UP. (paper)
> > > > > > > > > > >I have found out that dodging Pompey is a good thing,
> > dodging
> > > > is
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > >trade, and I am as good a dodger as any he [sic] in
> > > > California,
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > >keep your eyes on their Big Guns, and when you see the
> > flash,
> > > > fall
> > > > > > > > > > >down where you stand, and don't rose again till you hear
> > the
> > > > Ball
> > > > > > > > > > >whistle over your heads;....
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >1847 Cruise of the Graceful; or, The Robbers of Carracas,
> > by
> > > > > > Captain
> > > > > > > > > > >Barnacle, U.S.N. (C.M. Newell?) p. 5, col. 1 (HT)
> > > > > > > > > > >....I never seed so much _dodging pompey_ in all my
> > sailoring
> > > > as I
> > > > > > > > > > >have these two weeks past.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >1880 Captain Tom Drake; or, England's hearts of oak. W. L.
> > > > Emmett.
> > > > > > > > > > >p. 7 col. 1
> > > > > > > > > > >"I've put a question to you, now I wants the answer; now
> > > > then, out
> > > > > > > > > > >with it, none of your tack and half tack, and dodging
> > Pompey
> > > > round
> > > > > > > > > > >the long boat, let's have it...."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >1899 The log of a sea-waif... Frank T. Bullen, p.292 (GB)
> > > > > > > > > > >They killed time in a variety of ways, making believe to
> > do
> > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > >work, but principally occupied in "dodging Pompey."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >Stephen Goranson
> > > > > > > > > > >www.duke.edu/~goranson <http://www.duke.edu/%7Egoranson>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > >The American Dialect Society -
> > http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society -
> > http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
More information about the Ads-l
mailing list