another mystery quote

[Jonathan Lighter]

"Norbert" Elias.

Jeez.

JL

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:

> The passage appears in this translation in Norman Elias's _The Civilizing
> Process_  (1939; rpt. Urizen Books, 1978), p. 196.
>
> The Bly/Bennett version replaces Elias's "War" with "battle" and
> inadvertently omits a phrase.
>
> JL
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Brilliant suggestion, Stephen.
>>
>> Jean de *Bueil* did write the passage  in _Le Jouvencel_ ca1466.
>>
>> Bly also calls him "de Brueil." So Bennett presumably got the quote from
>> Bly.
>>
>> (Also included are the recreated orations by famous non-freedom fighters
>> Alexander, William the Conqueror, and Henry V.)
>>
>> JL
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
>> > Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
>> >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Jean de Bueil ?
>> >
>> > Stephen Goranson
>> > www.duke.edu/~goranson
>> > ________________________________________
>> > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
>> > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:01 AM
>> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > Subject: [ADS-L] another mystery quote
>> >
>> > William Bennett's hot new inspiration anthology for teenage boys (No
>> girls
>> > allowed!), called _The Book of Man_, includes (p. 36) a paragraph from a
>> > certain French knight who went by the moniker of Jean de Brueil.
>> >
>> > The quote appears in Robert Bly's _Iron John_ (1990) where poet Bly
>> tells
>> > us that it was "found" by the "aikido student and master Terry Dobson
>> who
>> > has taught so many of us the goodness possible inside the warrior" (p.
>> > 2004, p. 137). It was allegedly "spoken" in 1465.
>> >
>> > But surprise!  I find no earlier mention of this "Jean de Brueil" (or
>> > Breuil/ Bruil/ Brule) anywhere in GB, JSTOR or the Net itself. Same for
>> his
>> > alleged words.
>> >
>> > The quote begins:
>> >
>> > "Battle is  joyous thing. We love each other so much in battle. If we
>> see
>> > that our cause is just and our kinsmen fight boldly, tears come to our
>> > eyes. A sweet joy rises in our hearts...."
>> >
>> > You get the picture.
>> >
>> > Surely a  distinguished and meticulous Harvard graduate, political
>> > philosopher, and radio host like Dr. Bennett, who notes that the
>> "Athenians
>> > and Spartans fought a bloody and horrific  [Peloponnesian] war for
>> freedom"
>> > (instead of out of suspicion and jealousy, as  Thucydides imagined) must
>> > have double- and triple-checked the passage for authenticity.   Thus,
>> among
>> > the acknowledgments, he is careful to assure us that, yes, the passage
>> is
>> > "by Jean de Brueil."
>> >
>> > No further information is given.
>> >
>> > Garson?
>> >
>> > JL
>> >
>> > --
>> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>



--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org