another mystery quote

[Jonathan Lighter]

The passage appears in this translation in Norman Elias's _The Civilizing
Process_  (1939; rpt. Urizen Books, 1978), p. 196.

The Bly/Bennett version replaces Elias's "War" with "battle" and
inadvertently omits a phrase.

JL

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Brilliant suggestion, Stephen.
>
> Jean de *Bueil* did write the passage  in _Le Jouvencel_ ca1466.
>
> Bly also calls him "de Brueil." So Bennett presumably got the quote from
> Bly.
>
> (Also included are the recreated orations by famous non-freedom fighters
> Alexander, William the Conqueror, and Henry V.)
>
> JL
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu
> >wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Jean de Bueil ?
> >
> > Stephen Goranson
> > www.duke.edu/~goranson
> > ________________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:01 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: [ADS-L] another mystery quote
> >
> > William Bennett's hot new inspiration anthology for teenage boys (No
> girls
> > allowed!), called _The Book of Man_, includes (p. 36) a paragraph from a
> > certain French knight who went by the moniker of Jean de Brueil.
> >
> > The quote appears in Robert Bly's _Iron John_ (1990) where poet Bly tells
> > us that it was "found" by the "aikido student and master Terry Dobson who
> > has taught so many of us the goodness possible inside the warrior" (p.
> > 2004, p. 137). It was allegedly "spoken" in 1465.
> >
> > But surprise!  I find no earlier mention of this "Jean de Brueil" (or
> > Breuil/ Bruil/ Brule) anywhere in GB, JSTOR or the Net itself. Same for
> his
> > alleged words.
> >
> > The quote begins:
> >
> > "Battle is  joyous thing. We love each other so much in battle. If we see
> > that our cause is just and our kinsmen fight boldly, tears come to our
> > eyes. A sweet joy rises in our hearts...."
> >
> > You get the picture.
> >
> > Surely a  distinguished and meticulous Harvard graduate, political
> > philosopher, and radio host like Dr. Bennett, who notes that the
> "Athenians
> > and Spartans fought a bloody and horrific  [Peloponnesian] war for
> freedom"
> > (instead of out of suspicion and jealousy, as  Thucydides imagined) must
> > have double- and triple-checked the passage for authenticity.   Thus,
> among
> > the acknowledgments, he is careful to assure us that, yes, the passage is
> > "by Jean de Brueil."
> >
> > No further information is given.
> >
> > Garson?
> >
> > JL
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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