another mystery quote

Wed Nov 21 14:26:48 UTC 2012

I've tracked down the original (in fifteenth-century French), and let's say
that the original is somewhat less vivid  than the English translations.

But for you scholars of Middle French: This sentence gives me pause:

"On pense en soy-meismes : Laisseray-je ad ce tirant oster par sa cruauté
le bien d'autruy, où il n'a riens."

"You think to yourself..."   What exactly?  I know what I'd like it to
mean, but I'm not fluent enough to be sure that it does.

JL

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> And a different translation is given by J. Huizinga, The Waning of the
> Middle Ages (1924) 64-5.
>
> Stephen Goranson
> www.duke.edu/~goranson
> ________________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:02 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] another mystery quote
>
> "Norbert" Elias.
>
> Jeez.
>
> JL
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > The passage appears in this translation in Norman Elias's _The Civilizing
> > Process_  (1939; rpt. Urizen Books, 1978), p. 196.
> >
> > The Bly/Bennett version replaces Elias's "War" with "battle" and
> > inadvertently omits a phrase.
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Brilliant suggestion, Stephen.
> >>
> >> Jean de *Bueil* did write the passage  in _Le Jouvencel_ ca1466.
> >>
> >> Bly also calls him "de Brueil." So Bennett presumably got the quote from
> >> Bly.
> >>
> >> (Also included are the recreated orations by famous non-freedom fighters
> >> Alexander, William the Conqueror, and Henry V.)
> >>
> >> JL
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> > -----------------------
> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
> >> > Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Jean de Bueil ?
> >> >
> >> > Stephen Goranson
> >> > www.duke.edu/~goranson
> >> > ________________________________________
> >> > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> >> > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:01 AM
> >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> > Subject: [ADS-L] another mystery quote
> >> >
> >> > William Bennett's hot new inspiration anthology for teenage boys (No
> >> girls
> >> > allowed!), called _The Book of Man_, includes (p. 36) a paragraph
> from a
> >> > certain French knight who went by the moniker of Jean de Brueil.
> >> >
> >> > The quote appears in Robert Bly's _Iron John_ (1990) where poet Bly
> >> tells
> >> > us that it was "found" by the "aikido student and master Terry Dobson
> >> who
> >> > has taught so many of us the goodness possible inside the warrior" (p.
> >> > 2004, p. 137). It was allegedly "spoken" in 1465.
> >> >
> >> > But surprise!  I find no earlier mention of this "Jean de Brueil" (or
> >> > Breuil/ Bruil/ Brule) anywhere in GB, JSTOR or the Net itself. Same
> for
> >> his
> >> > alleged words.
> >> >
> >> > The quote begins:
> >> >
> >> > "Battle is  joyous thing. We love each other so much in battle. If we
> >> see
> >> > that our cause is just and our kinsmen fight boldly, tears come to our
> >> > eyes. A sweet joy rises in our hearts...."
> >> >
> >> > You get the picture.
> >> >
> >> > Surely a  distinguished and meticulous Harvard graduate, political
> >> > philosopher, and radio host like Dr. Bennett, who notes that the
> >> "Athenians
> >> > and Spartans fought a bloody and horrific  [Peloponnesian] war for
> >> freedom"
> >> > (instead of out of suspicion and jealousy, as  Thucydides imagined)
> must
> >> > have double- and triple-checked the passage for authenticity.   Thus,
> >> among
> >> > the acknowledgments, he is careful to assure us that, yes, the passage
> >> is
> >> > "by Jean de Brueil."
> >> >
> >> > No further information is given.
> >> >
> >> > Garson?
> >> >
> >> > JL
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org