another mystery quote

Wed Nov 21 14:52:56 UTC 2012

E9 is "cruaute" with an acutely accented "e" ;  F9 is "ou" with a gravely
accented "u."

JL

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've tracked down the original (in fifteenth-century French), and let's say
> that the original is somewhat less vivid  than the English translations.
>
> But for you scholars of Middle French: This sentence gives me pause:
>
> "On pense en soy-meismes : Laisseray-je ad ce tirant oster par sa cruaut=E9
> le bien d'autruy, o=F9 il n'a riens."
>
> "You think to yourself..."   What exactly?  I know what I'd like it to
> mean, but I'm not fluent enough to be sure that it does.
>
> JL
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu>
> wrote=
> :
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
> >
> > And a different translation is given by J. Huizinga, The Waning of the
> > Middle Ages (1924) 64-5.
> >
> > Stephen Goranson
> > www.duke.edu/~goranson
> > ________________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:02 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] another mystery quote
> >
> > "Norbert" Elias.
> >
> > Jeez.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > The passage appears in this translation in Norman Elias's _The
> Civilizi=
> ng
> > > Process_  (1939; rpt. Urizen Books, 1978), p. 196.
> > >
> > > The Bly/Bennett version replaces Elias's "War" with "battle" and
> > > inadvertently omits a phrase.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >> Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
> > >>
> > >> Brilliant suggestion, Stephen.
> > >>
> > >> Jean de *Bueil* did write the passage  in _Le Jouvencel_ ca1466.
> > >>
> > >> Bly also calls him "de Brueil." So Bennett presumably got the quote
> fr=
> om
> > >> Bly.
> > >>
> > >> (Also included are the recreated orations by famous non-freedom
> fighte=
> rs
> > >> Alexander, William the Conqueror, and Henry V.)
> > >>
> > >> JL
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu
> > >> >wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >> > -----------------------
> > >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >> > Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
> > >> > Subject:      Re: another mystery quote
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
> > >> >
> > >> > Jean de Bueil ?
> > >> >
> > >> > Stephen Goranson
> > >> > www.duke.edu/~goranson
> > >> > ________________________________________
> > >> > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf
> of
> > >> > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:01 AM
> > >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >> > Subject: [ADS-L] another mystery quote
> > >> >
> > >> > William Bennett's hot new inspiration anthology for teenage boys (No
> > >> girls
> > >> > allowed!), called _The Book of Man_, includes (p. 36) a paragraph
> > from a
> > >> > certain French knight who went by the moniker of Jean de Brueil.
> > >> >
> > >> > The quote appears in Robert Bly's _Iron John_ (1990) where poet Bly
> > >> tells
> > >> > us that it was "found" by the "aikido student and master Terry
> Dobso=
> n
> > >> who
> > >> > has taught so many of us the goodness possible inside the warrior"
> (=
> p.
> > >> > 2004, p. 137). It was allegedly "spoken" in 1465.
> > >> >
> > >> > But surprise!  I find no earlier mention of this "Jean de Brueil"
> (o=
> r
> > >> > Breuil/ Bruil/ Brule) anywhere in GB, JSTOR or the Net itself. Same
> > for
> > >> his
> > >> > alleged words.
> > >> >
> > >> > The quote begins:
> > >> >
> > >> > "Battle is  joyous thing. We love each other so much in battle. If
> w=
> e
> > >> see
> > >> > that our cause is just and our kinsmen fight boldly, tears come to
> o=
> ur
> > >> > eyes. A sweet joy rises in our hearts...."
> > >> >
> > >> > You get the picture.
> > >> >
> > >> > Surely a  distinguished and meticulous Harvard graduate, political
> > >> > philosopher, and radio host like Dr. Bennett, who notes that the
> > >> "Athenians
> > >> > and Spartans fought a bloody and horrific  [Peloponnesian] war for
> > >> freedom"
> > >> > (instead of out of suspicion and jealousy, as  Thucydides imagined)
> > must
> > >> > have double- and triple-checked the passage for authenticity.
> Thus=
> ,
> > >> among
> > >> > the acknowledgments, he is careful to assure us that, yes, the
> passa=
> ge
> > >> is
> > >> > "by Jean de Brueil."
> > >> >
> > >> > No further information is given.
> > >> >
> > >> > Garson?
> > >> >
> > >> > JL
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > >> truth."
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > >> truth."
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth=
> ."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
>
> --=20
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org