"should/ would" opinions please

Mon Apr 29 17:09:08 UTC 2013

At 4/29/2013 12:44 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>The author of the grumpy _Write it Right_ (1909), the largely self-educated
>Bierce was notably reactionary as a stylist and grammarian. One critic,
>IIRC, implies that he was an eighteenth-century writer trapped in the
>nineteenth and early twentieth.
>
>I raised the question because the sentence concludes Bierce's essay and is
>therefore unusually significant. It's hard for me to imagine  the average
>American of today, or even of fifty years ago, understanding, without some
>serious reflective consideration, what Bierce actually meant .

1)  I sometimes feel like an average, but coffee-house-habituating,
newspaper-reading, American of 250 years ago.
2)  When I return to the 21st century, I find it hard to understand
the reactionaries of today, let alone Bierce (but in my 18th-century
cloak, I think I can make him out -- at least in the passage in
question -- mostly.)

Joel

>JL
>
>
>On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: "should/ would" opinions please
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > At 4/29/2013 09:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > >Thanks all.
> > >
> > >I think Doug is correct.
> >
> > I definitely agree (certainly for the 18th century) with his
> >  > I think "an other" = "a different" in usual modern writing, not exactly
> >  > the same as usual modern "another".
> >
> > "Shall/should" is too complex for me!  But my feeling (perhaps
> > subconsciously instilled by my reading in 18th and early 19th century
> > stuff) agrees with Jon -- we should/would/might say today "might", or "had
> > I".
> >
> > Joel
> >
> >
> >
> > >J
> > >
> > >
> > >On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> > > > Subject:      Re: "should/ would" opinions please
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > On 4/28/2013 12:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject:      "should/ would" opinions please
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's an interesting "should/would" question with a dash of "might"
> > for
> > > > > those more attuned to 19th C. nuance than I am.
> > > > >
> > > > > In an 1881 essay on the battle of Shiloh, Ambrose Bierce concludes by
> > > > > waxing poetic in the following terms:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Ah, Youth, there is no such wizard as thou! =85[G]ild for but one
> > > > moment t=
> > > > > he
> > > > > drear and somber scenes of to-day, and I will willingly surrender an
> > > > other
> > > > > [sic] life than the one that I should have thrown away at Shiloh."
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't believe (from the broader context) he means that he "should"
> > have
> > > > > thrown his life away; merely that he "might" have (by being killed).
> > > >  (The
> > > > > "other" life involved, in contrast to his adventurous youth, is his
> > drab
> > > > > post-bellum existence.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Whatever Bierce may mean, I don't feel that my sprakgefool is sharp
> > > > enough
> > > > > to determine the nuances of "should" and "would" in this case.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do others interpret Bierce's meaning?
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > I think "an other" = "a different" in usual modern writing, not exactly
> > > > the same as usual modern "another".
> > > >
> > > > I think "should have" = "would have": I think in isolation it is
> > > > ambiguous as to whether an element of will[ingness] is implied: perhaps
> > > > this would be clear to one who has carefully read the whole piece (and
> > > > other Bierce).
> > > >
> > > > So I would think
> > > >
> > > > <<and I will willingly surrender an other life than the one that I
> > > > should have thrown away at Shiloh>>
> > > >
> > > > can be paraphrased
> > > >
> > > > <<and I will willingly surrender my current life, which is [so]
> > > > different from my youthful life, which I would have thrown away at
> > Shiloh>>
> > > >
> > > > with
> > > >
> > > > <<would have thrown away>>
> > > >
> > > > meaning either
> > > >
> > > > <<might have thrown away (had things gone a little differently)>>
> > > >
> > > > or
> > > >
> > > > <<would willingly have thrown away / risked (in the recklessness of my
> > > > youth)>>
> > > >
> > > > [Of course, when one waxes, some fine features may be lost.]
> > > >
> > > > -- Doug Wilson
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
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>
>
>--
>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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