diacritical marks WAS Re: Word (Phrase?) of the Year (so far)?; Rambo'd (UNCLASSIFIED)

[Dan Goncharoff]

I would have written SER-zeh

DanG


On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC <
Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote:

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> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: diacritical marks WAS Re: Word (Phrase?) of the Year (so
>               far)?; Rambo'd (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
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> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
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>
> Then shouldn't his name be pronounced more like "SERT-zay" than "SOH-say"?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Dan Goncharoff
> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 9:15 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: diacritical marks WAS Re: Word (Phrase?) of the Year (so
> > far)?; Rambo'd (UNCLASSIFIED)
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------
> > --------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: diacritical marks WAS Re: Word (Phrase?) of the Year
> > (so
> >               far)?; Rambo'd (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > The umlaut in Keyser's name is indeed an umlaut. His father is supposed
> > to be German, even though he is himself Turkish.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jan 31, 2013, at 8:27 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------
> > ----------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > > Subject:      Re: diacritical marks WAS Re: Word (Phrase?) of the
> > Year (so
> > >              far)?; Rambo'd (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > > ---------
> > >
> > > On Jan 31, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > >
> > >> I always thought the word umlaut was reserved for German; in other
> > >> languages, including the one the New Yorker magazine is written in,
> > >> the word is diaeresis. There is also a difference in meaning -- the
> > >> vowels with an umlaut can also be written with a following 'e', but
> > >> the diaeresis allows for no such convention.
> > >>
> > >> We discussed this here within the last few years.
> > >>
> > >> DanG
> > >>
> > > We probably did, and I probably said then too that the function of
> > the double dots is crucial in distinguishing umlauts from diaereses;
> > the Turkish fronted vowels are much more like the German ones than they
> > are like the vowels in English and French that wear diaereses to show
> > that they're pronounced separately from the preceding vowels.  The o in
> > S�ze is not (and is not decorated with) a diaeresis, but rather is an
> > umlauted vowel.  The OED on diaeresis:
> > >
> > > 1 a. The division of one syllable into two, esp. by the separation of
> > a diphthong into two simple vowels.
> > >   b. The sign [�] marking such a division, or, more usually, placed
> > over the second of two vowels which otherwise make a diphthong or
> > single sound, to indicate that they are to be pronounced separately.
> > >
> > > Nothing of that sort is happening with "S�ze".  The question of
> > when the tradition of a following "e" can be used is a separate one;
> > I've never seen that used for Turkish umlauted vowels either, but it
> > may be for all I know.
> > >
> > > LH
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC <
> > >> Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> > >>> Subject:      diacritical marks WAS     Re: Word (Phrase?) of the
> > Year (so
> > >>>             far)?; Rambo'd (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > >>>
> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > >>> -----------
> > >>>
> > >>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> > >>> Caveats: NONE
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The Wikipedia entry for "The Usual Suspects uses the spelling
> > >>>> Keyser Soze with an umlaut over the o. Jonathan Lighter sent a
> > >>>> message to the list on June 2, 2011 about the "Keyser Soeze
> > >>>> syndrome" that is
> > >>> somewhat
> > >>>> similar.  Dan Goncharoff sent a message about the "Keyser Soeze
> > >>>> syndrome" which concerns twist endings for films
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From my high school German, I remember that an umlaut is the
> > >>> double-dot that goes over o (for the OE sound), the u (UE), and a
> > >>> (AE).  "Keyser Soze" (and the "o" in "Soze" had a double-dot) was a
> > >>> Turkish name, I believe.  Should it still be called an umlaut?  Is
> > >>> "umlaut" the general name for a double-dot mark over a vowel?  (or
> > >>> possibly consonants, as in "Spinal Tap", in which case the "n" had
> > a
> > >>> double-dot?)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
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