Jiang - what Confucius insisted on eating

[Randy Alexander]

I forwarded this to Victor Mair who replied:

All right, originally 醬 was any sort of *fermented* sauce.  The radical at
the bottom of the character has to do with alcohol.  I wrote about that on
LL several years ago.  Later it comes to mean any jam-like or paste-like
sauce.

There's an exhaustive technical volume on the subject of fermentation in
Joseph Needham's *Science and **Civilisation** in China*.

Some links:

http:// <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>www.zdic.net<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>
/z/26/ <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>js<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>
/91AC.htm <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>

http:// <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>www.zdic.net<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>
/z/26/ <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>js<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>
/9171. <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>htm<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>

http:// <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>en.wiktionary.org<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>
/wiki/%E9%85%B1 <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>

http:// <http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>zh.wiktionary.org<http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>
/wiki/%E9%85%B1 <http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>

http://<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
www.chineseetymology.org<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
/<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
CharacterEtymology.aspx<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
?<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
submitButton1<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
=Etymology&<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
characterInput<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
=%E9%86%<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>
AC<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E9%86%AC>

It's as early as the bronze inscriptions, but not found on the oracle bone
inscriptions.

What do you think the gist of the ADS questions is?
On Jan 20, 2014 9:16 PM, "Benjamin Barrett" <gogaku at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Jiang - what Confucius insisted on eating
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> BTW, although there are lots of instances of 肉不正不食 on Google, it doesn't
> seem to appear in "Analects." I do find 割不正不食 there, though.
>
> FWIW, I think this is a red herring. BB
>
> On Jan 20, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't actually know Chinese, but that seems like a reasonable
> translation of 肉不正不食. However, that's not 不得其醬, which certainly seems to be
> part of the "Analects." BB
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2014, at 4:36 PM, W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> >> BB: <<bu4 de2 qi2 jia4ng>>
> >>
> >> WB: Wife's kindergarten teacher would disagree with this analysis.
> Showed
> >> msg to wife; contrarily without hesitation proclaimed it as WRONG; no
> >> arguing with native speaker. Since kindergarten, she has learned that if
> >> his meat were not *correctly prepared*, Confucius would not eat it.
> Recites
> >> rotely =E8=82=89=E4=B8=8D=E6=AD=A3=E4=B8=8D=E9=A3=9F rou4 bu4 *zheng4*
> bu4 =
> >> shi2 <meat not *square* not eat>.
> >> Further explicating symbolism: Confucius was fastidious about being
> correct
> >> in everything, morality, politics, filial piety (thus accounting for the
> >> <anal> in Analects--WB). Anyway, am heartened at prospect of 200,000
> >> Chinese words for sauce, making mincemeat of the Eskimos.
> >>
> >> A philosopher colleague once asked me whether it was common practice in
> >> Taiwan to cite Chinese classics in Old Chinese pronunciation or
> Mandarin. I
> >> think Confucius should be cited in his own <<dialect>>: p=C9=99
> t=C9=99k g=
> >> =C9=99 tsa=C5=8Bh (=3D
> >> p@ t at k g@ tsangh).
> >>
> >> One of Mathews' (1943) glosses for jiang4 is 'ketchup'. I also like to
> put
> >> ketchup on Chinese food, just tastes better that way.
>
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