Jiang - what Confucius insisted on eating

[Benjamin Barrett]

Thank you for passing along that confirmation. BB

On Jan 21, 2014, at 11:28 AM, Randy Alexander <strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> I forwarded this to Victor Mair who replied:
>
> All right, originally =E9=86=AC was any sort of *fermented* sauce.  The rad=
> ical at
> the bottom of the character has to do with alcohol.  I wrote about that on
> LL several years ago.  Later it comes to mean any jam-like or paste-like
> sauce.
>
> There's an exhaustive technical volume on the subject of fermentation in
> Joseph Needham's *Science and **Civilisation** in China*.
>
> Some links:
>
> http:// <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>www.zdic.net<http://www.zdic.=
> net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>
> /z/26/ <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>js<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js=
> /91AC.htm>
> /91AC.htm <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/91AC.htm>
>
> http:// <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>www.zdic.net<http://www.zdic.=
> net/z/26/js/9171.htm>
> /z/26/ <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>js<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js=
> /9171.htm>
> /9171. <http://www.zdic.net/z/26/js/9171.htm>htm<http://www.zdic.net/z/26/j=
> s/9171.htm>
>
> http:// <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>en.wiktionary.org<http://e=
> n.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>
> /wiki/%E9%85%B1 <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>
>
> http:// <http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>zh.wiktionary.org<http://z=
> h.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>
> /wiki/%E9%85%B1 <http://zh.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%85%B1>
>
> http://<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButto=
> n1=3DEtymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> www.chineseetymology.org<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology=
> .aspx?submitButton1=3DEtymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> /<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=3DE=
> tymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> CharacterEtymology.aspx<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.=
> aspx?submitButton1=3DEtymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> ?<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=3DE=
> tymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> submitButton1<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submi=
> tButton1=3DEtymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> =3DEtymology&<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submi=
> tButton1=3DEtymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> characterInput<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?subm=
> itButton1=3DEtymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> =3D%E9%86%<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitBu=
> tton1=3DEtymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
> AC<http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=3D=
> Etymology&characterInput=3D%E9%86%AC>
>
> It's as early as the bronze inscriptions, but not found on the oracle bone
> inscriptions.
>
> What do you think the gist of the ADS questions is?
> On Jan 20, 2014 9:16 PM, "Benjamin Barrett" <gogaku at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Jiang - what Confucius insisted on eating
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
>>
>> BTW, although there are lots of instances of =E8=82=89=E4=B8=8D=E6=AD=A3=
> =E4=B8=8D=E9=A3=9F on Google, it doesn't
>> seem to appear in "Analects." I do find =E5=89=B2=E4=B8=8D=E6=AD=A3=E4=B8=
> =8D=E9=A3=9F there, though.
>>
>> FWIW, I think this is a red herring. BB
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't actually know Chinese, but that seems like a reasonable
>> translation of =E8=82=89=E4=B8=8D=E6=AD=A3=E4=B8=8D=E9=A3=9F. However, th=
> at's not =E4=B8=8D=E5=BE=97=E5=85=B6=E9=86=AC, which certainly seems to be
>> part of the "Analects." BB
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2014, at 4:36 PM, W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>
>>>> BB: <<bu4 de2 qi2 jia4ng>>
>>>>
>>>> WB: Wife's kindergarten teacher would disagree with this analysis.
>> Showed
>>>> msg to wife; contrarily without hesitation proclaimed it as WRONG; no
>>>> arguing with native speaker. Since kindergarten, she has learned that =
> if
>>>> his meat were not *correctly prepared*, Confucius would not eat it.
>> Recites
>>>> rotely =3DE8=3D82=3D89=3DE4=3DB8=3D8D=3DE6=3DAD=3DA3=3DE4=3DB8=3D8D=3D=
> E9=3DA3=3D9F rou4 bu4 *zheng4*
>> bu4 =3D
>>>> shi2 <meat not *square* not eat>.
>>>> Further explicating symbolism: Confucius was fastidious about being
>> correct
>>>> in everything, morality, politics, filial piety (thus accounting for t=
> he
>>>> <anal> in Analects--WB). Anyway, am heartened at prospect of 200,000
>>>> Chinese words for sauce, making mincemeat of the Eskimos.
>>>>
>>>> A philosopher colleague once asked me whether it was common practice i=
> n
>>>> Taiwan to cite Chinese classics in Old Chinese pronunciation or
>> Mandarin. I
>>>> think Confucius should be cited in his own <<dialect>>: p=3DC9=3D99
>> t=3DC9=3D99k g=3D
>>>> =3DC9=3D99 tsa=3DC5=3D8Bh (=3D3D
>>>> p@ t at k g@ tsangh).
>>>>
>>>> One of Mathews' (1943) glosses for jiang4 is 'ketchup'. I also like to
>> put
>>>> ketchup on Chinese food, just tastes better that way.

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