which its = "whose"

[Jonathan Lighter]

>  modern speakers with less than a high school education the
grammar of wh-relatives is sketchy and these unusual "which" constructions
are a form of hypercorrection.

That was my guess back in the '80s.

But Id change the statement to "a great many modern speakers" and delete
"with less than a high school education."

My students were all in college, and some were graduate students -  in
English!

I believe the basis of the difficulty is that people rarely need to use
these constructions in everyday speech.  Some have never fully grasped the
pattern.

Another complication behind "which's/ whiches/ which it's" is that many
speakers are uncomfortable with using "whose" for inanimate antecedents.

JL




On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 10:08 PM, Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: which its = "whose"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think historically wh-relatives developed in learned discourse and among
> educated people.  It's probably a generalization of indefinite relatives,
> and they seem to develop twice in Old and Middle English.  They begin to
> appear in the tenth c., perhaps as a calque on Latin qu- forms, but after
> the Normans stamped out English as a literary medium, they started
> reappearing again in ME in the 13th c. when writing in English begins to
> flourish again.  The that-relative continued as an option throughout these
> periods.  I would speculate that in the vernacular English of the medieval
> unlettered and modern speakers with less than a high school education the
> grammar of wh-relatives is sketchy and these unusual "which" constructions
> are a form of hypercorrection.
>
> Herb
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: which its = "whose"
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > FWIW, I used to talk a lot to someone who used some sort of odd "which."
> I
> > took it to be something he used to sound more intelligent. BB
> >
> > On Jun 14, 2014, at 4:52 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I've been hearing it in TN since the '70s. I don't recall it from NYC,
> > but
> > > I may not have known the right people.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> > >> Subject:      Re: which its = "whose"
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> I've heard sentences like
> > >>
> > >> We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained, so we stayed
> > >> home=
> > >> .
> > >>
> > >> I don't know what its regional distribution is, but most instances
> I've
> > >> heard have come from NW Ohio.
> > >>
> > >> Herb
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Laurence Horn <
> laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > >>> Subject:      Re: which its =3D "whose"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > >> ------
> > >>>
> > >>> Ah, I see the OED's entry at 14b, citing the same source inter alia:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hence, in vulgar use, without any antecedent, as a mere connective or
> > >>> introductory particle.
> >
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> >
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