[Ads-l] "All art is propaganda."

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Wed Nov 19 01:10:01 UTC 2014 

On Nov 18, 2014, at 2:37 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:

> This website, which claims to be "(t)he only genuine source of Marx quotes
> on the internet, in which every quote is sourced by a link to the original
> context,"

Hmmm.  Doesn't seem to include any of my favorites--"I refuse to join any club that would accept me as a member" or "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend; inside a dog it's too dark to read" or, of course, "I shot an elephant in my pajamas; how he got into my pajamas I'll never know."  

And on the topic of art and propaganda, or at least art:  "Art is art. Still, on the other hand, water is water."

LH

> has the following:
> 
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/quotes/
> 
> When communist artisans associate with one another, theory, propaganda,
> etc., is their first end. But at the same time, as a result of this
> association, they acquire a new need — the need for society — and what
> appears as a means becomes an end. ... the brotherhood of man is no mere
> phrase with them, but a fact of life, and the nobility of man shines upon
> us from their work-hardened bodies.
> 
> Marx, Human Needs & the division of Labour (1844)
> 
> DanG
> 
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Surely there is a passage in Marx to similar effect, but where?
>> 
>> 
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> No editor is mentioned in February or March. W. B. McCormick writes
>> "Notes
>>> of the
>>> Studies and Galleries" in March 1918 though. I agree there is no clear
>>> attribution.
>>> 
>>> DanG
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:50 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
>>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>>>> So do we credit the phrase to Guy Pene du Bois?
>>>> 
>>>> The statement in 1918 might be labeled a precursor or an actual
>>>> instance of the saying. Entries on QI sometimes trace evolving sayings
>>>> without definitive demarcations.
>>>> 
>>>> As to who wrote it. That's an excellent hypothesis, Dan. Guy Pene du
>>>> Bois was the editor of Arts & Decoration and wrote many signed
>>>> articles. His initials G.P.B are appended to the column "Notes of the
>>>> Studies and Galleries" for January 1918
>>>> 
>>>> But I do not see any name clearly attached to the "Notes of the
>>>> Studies and Galleries" column of February 1918 that included the
>>>> target quotation.
>>>> 
>>>> Garson
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> DanG
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 1:02 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
>>>>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here is a precursor to Upton Sinclair's statement in 1918 expressed
>>>>>> tentatively instead of emphatically.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Issue Date: February 1918
>>>>>> Periodical: Arts & Decoration
>>>>>> Article: Notes of the Studies and Galleries,
>>>>>> Star Page 165, Quote Page 165,
>>>>>> Publisher: Dexter W. Hewitt at Adam Budge, Inc.
>>>>>> Database: Google Books Full View
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=hhbnAAAAMAAJ&q=%22if+all+art%22#v=snippet&
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [Begin excerpt]
>>>>>> Yet we sometimes wonder if all art is not propaganda--political or
>>>>>> spiritual and always egotistic.
>>>>>> [End excerpt]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Garson
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> That occurred to me too, but I don't see a ref. in GB or Hathi.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Prob. Marx said something more prolix.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> At 11/15/2014 04:57 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Not in YBQ, but it gets 30,000 raw Googlits.  I recently read it
>>> in
>>>> a
>>>>>>>> movie
>>>>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1925 Upton Sinclair _Mammonart_ (Pasadena: pub. by the author)
>> 9:
>>>> All
>>>>>> art
>>>>>>>>> is propaganda. It is universally and inescapably propaganda;
>>>> sometimes
>>>>>>>>> unconsciously, but often deliberately, propaganda.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Rather a dilute meaning of "propaganda," wouldn't you say? The
>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>> OED
>>>>>>>>> def. is
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "The systematic dissemination of information, esp. in a biased
>> or
>>>>>>>>> misleading way, in order to promote a political cause or point
>> of
>>>> view.
>>>>>>>>> Also: information disseminated in this way; the means or media
>> by
>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> such ideas are disseminated."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sinclair seems to mean rather that all art exerts some influence
>>> on
>>>>>>>>> beliefs, willy-nilly.  As dothose who repeat the assertion (usu.
>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> attribution).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sinclair was a utopian, left-wing, progressive Democrat,
>> Socialist,
>>>>>>>> Wobbly-supporting pinko, wasn't he?  "All art is propaganda" is
>>>>>>>> something I could imagine said by Karl Marx.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Factoid:  Wackipedia calls the book-length essay _Mammonart_ a
>>>> "novel."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
>>> the
>>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
>> the
>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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