[Ads-l] quote: fire in a wooden box

[ADSGarson O'Toole]

To ADS mailing list cc: David Gold
  Martin Joos used the expression "keeping a fire in a wooden stove"
in 1936 but he inexactly pointed to an earlier occurrence from Fritz
Mauthner "somewhere in his three-volume Beiträge zu einer Kritik der
Sprache".

Journal: Language
Volume 12, Number 3
Date: July to September, 1936
Review by Martin Joos of the book:
The Psycho-Biology of Language by George K. Zipf
(Quotation is in Footnote 13)
Start Page 196, Quote Page 205
Published by Linguistic Society of America
Database: JSTOR

[Begin excerpt]
Now the amusing thing here is that, taking the ideas just quoted and
remembering that the same meaning can be expressed in words of
different lengths (as Zipf repeatedly says throughout the book), it is
equally easy to 'prove' what he dismisses, and to use all his
illustrations as illustrations of the (apparent) contrary of what he
uses them for. The demonstration can safely be left to any reader who
likes to talk about talking." 13
[End excerpt]

[Begin excerpt]
[Footnote 13] A pursuit which Fritz Mauthner (somewhere in his
three-volume Beiträge zu einer Kritik der Sprache) aptly compares to
keeping a fire in a wooden stove.
[End excerpt]

Garson


On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 5:09 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> To ADS mailing list cc: David Gold
>   Here is a much better citation which is available via JSTOR. The
> metaphorical framework was employed in a 1935 paper by W. Freeman
> Twaddell who used the phrase "a fire in a wooden stove".
>
> Citation in Chicago Format: Twaddell, W. Freeman. "On Defining the
> Phoneme." Language 11, no. 1 (1935): 5-62.
>
> JSTOR link: http://www.jstor.org/stable/522070
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> Such a definition is invalid because (1) we have no right to guess
> about the linguistic workings of an inaccessible 'mind', and (2) we
> can secure no advantage from such guesses. The linguistic processes of
> the 'mind' as such are quite simply unobservable; and introspection
> about linguistic processes is notoriously a fire in a wooden stove.
> Our only information about the 'mind' is derived from the behavior of
> the individual whom it inhabits
> [End excerpt]
>
> Garson
>
> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 4:42 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole
> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>> To ADS mailing list cc: David Gold
>>   Below is information from a Google Books match circa 1983. An
>> instance of the saying was ascribed to Martin Joos, but the article
>> did not give a citation (apparently). I realize this is a late date;
>> Joos died in 1978. Perhaps other researchers will find this partial
>> information useful.
>>
>> Year: 1983
>> Journal: Babel: revue internationale de la traduction. International
>> journal of translation
>> Volume 29 (Vol 29 does correspond to 1983 according to Stanford catalog)
>> Quote Page 139 (visible in snippet)
>> Database: Google Books Snippet; month unknown; article title and
>> author unknown; data may be inaccurate and must be verified on paper
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=w3A4AQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=kindle
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> Definitions written in a human metalanguage all result in vicious
>> circles, as if the lexicographer were trying to "kindle a fire in a
>> wooden box" (Martin Joos). Occasionally, the inconvenience is
>> recognized, only to be swept under the carpet: "It is . . .
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> Below is another GB match circa 2005.
>>
>> Year: 2005
>> Title: Eurasian Studies Yearbook
>> Volume 77 (Vol 77 does correspond to 2005 according to UNC catalog)
>> Quote Page 24
>> Database: Google Books Snippet; data may be inaccurate and must be
>> verified on paper
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=f7FnAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Joos
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> Yes, parts of those definitions sound confusing or circular, but, as
>> said, defining ethnonyms and glottonyms is not easy and, as Martin
>> Joos once remarked, using language to talk about language is like
>> making a fire in a wooden box.
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> Garson O'Toole
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at stanford.edu> wrote:
>>> query from David Gold dl.gold at yahoo.com
>>>
>>> As a student of linguistics in the late 1960s and early 1970s, I remember reading the quip "linguistics [or maybe it was: defining linguistics] is like making a fire in a wooden box," that is, language is used to describe language.
>>>
>>> I have a vague recollection that the quipster was Martin Joos or some other American structuralist (Bloomfield? Bolinger?).
>>>
>>> Now that I want to cite the quip, I cannot find the exact wording or the author. Might you know?
>>>
>>> ....
>>>
>>> AMZ: if you respond, please send a copy of your e-mail to David Gold, who's not a subscriber to this list. (i am not a good forwarding service.)
>>>
>>> arnold
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org