[Ads-l] early "substitute for" = 'replace with'

[Laurence Horn]

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> The Fifth Columnists are a crew of Canadian Nazi sympathizers who've
> managed to man a Canadian merchant ship, which will be replaced in the fog
> by a German vessel that will be blown up by its actual-Nazi crew, thus
> destroying much of the convoy, while the Germans commandeer the Canadian
> ship und cargo
> 
> Zo zimple!
> 
> JL

Ah, I hadn't guessed at those plot points, in particular that the goal was to destroy the rest of the convoy.  And Canadians seem so nice.  Nobody ever expects the Canadian Nazis, because their chief weapon is...surprise!

So "was substituted for" really is "was replaced by" here.  I wonder if the passive form helps.  A suspiciously large proportion of the "substitute(d) with/by" (replacing "replace(d) with/by") are passive.

LH


> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Anyone with an hour and a half to devote to the answer:
>> 
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D51wz67pab2M&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=jtyLQextGor2qunC61IALs3tpozKfN-FFk4y3PYdkKw&e= 
>> 
>> DanG
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 1943 Miles Malleson & De Witt Bodeen _Yellow Canary_ (film): Even as I
>> am
>>>> speaking, a great convoy is nearing its destination. Last night, under
>>> the
>>>> cover of the fog, Number Four of the convoy, manned by Fifth
>> Columnists,
>>>> was substituted for an identical ship manned by a German crew. On board
>>> are
>>>> tons of TNT! The crew will abandon ship, and the time fuse will do its
>>> work!
>>>> 
>>>> JL
>>>> 
>>> Looks like a great antedate.  The OED offers this as the only
>> illustration
>>> of innovative "substitute for" (s.v. substitute, v., 3b), as opposed to
>> the
>>> many it provides for "substitute(d) by/with":
>>> 
>>> 1978   Pop. Mech. Oct. 174/1 (advt.)    Corvette winner may substitute
>>> automobile for $14,000 cash.
>>> 
>>> (The gloss for this sense is "To fill the place of (a person or thing)
>>> with a replacement; = replace v. 2b")
>>> 
>>> The 1943 passage also considerably antedates the controversial song lyric
>>> from The Who's "Substitute" (released as single, 1966; Pete Townsend,
>>> lyrics):
>>> 
>>> Substitute me for him
>>> Substitute my coke for gin
>>> Substitute you for my Mum
>>> At least I'll get my washing done
>>> 
>>> --or, if you prefer performance rather than citation mode,
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DeswQl-2DhcvU0&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=QZMKnWyQ0NuE5U9oX1ytQOgZKcQ5Mzton3DgfN_2OpQ&e= .  There's some dispute in
>> the
>>> literature about whether the instances of "substitute" in the verse
>>> exemplify the relevant lemma (= 'replace...with') or not, but even if you
>>> agree with me that they do, that's still well after 1943.
>>> 
>>> My problem with Jon's cite is that I don't understand it.  Are we sure,
>>> given the context of the war movie, that it's the ship with a German crew
>>> that's replacing the original Fifth Columnists' convoy ship and not vice
>>> versa?  Jon? Anyone?  Weren't the Fifth Columnists on the same bad-guy
>> side
>>> as the Germans?  Do I need to watch "Yellow Canary" to find out?
>>> 
>>> LH
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=axo_dUYItVREQbRHeOwshIh21VoSktGu2tXc16DwH-s&e= 
>>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=axo_dUYItVREQbRHeOwshIh21VoSktGu2tXc16DwH-s&e= 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> 
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