[Ads-l] early "substitute for" = 'replace with'

Thu Sep 22 00:10:39 UTC 2016

Had I mentioned that the speaker is a gloating Nazi spy (played by the very
competent Lucie Mannheim), it might have made the import of the utterance a
bit clearer.

JL

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 7:59 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
wrote:

> > On Sep 21, 2016, at 4:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
> >
> > The Fifth Columnists are a crew of Canadian Nazi sympathizers who've
> > managed to man a Canadian merchant ship, which will be replaced in the
> fog
> > by a German vessel that will be blown up by its actual-Nazi crew, thus
> > destroying much of the convoy, while the Germans commandeer the Canadian
> > ship und cargo
> >
> > Zo zimple!
> >
> > JL
>
> Ah, I hadn't guessed at those plot points, in particular that the goal was
> to destroy the rest of the convoy.  And Canadians seem so nice.  Nobody
> ever expects the Canadian Nazis, because their chief weapon is...surprise!
>
> So "was substituted for" really is "was replaced by" here.  I wonder if
> the passive form helps.  A suspiciously large proportion of the
> "substitute(d) with/by" (replacing "replace(d) with/by") are passive.
>
> LH
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone with an hour and a half to devote to the answer:
> >>
> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D51wz67pab2M&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=
> wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_
> xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=jtyLQextGor2qunC61IALs3tpozKfN
> -FFk4y3PYdkKw&e=
> >>
> >> DanG
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1943 Miles Malleson & De Witt Bodeen _Yellow Canary_ (film): Even as I
> >> am
> >>>> speaking, a great convoy is nearing its destination. Last night, under
> >>> the
> >>>> cover of the fog, Number Four of the convoy, manned by Fifth
> >> Columnists,
> >>>> was substituted for an identical ship manned by a German crew. On
> board
> >>> are
> >>>> tons of TNT! The crew will abandon ship, and the time fuse will do its
> >>> work!
> >>>>
> >>>> JL
> >>>>
> >>> Looks like a great antedate.  The OED offers this as the only
> >> illustration
> >>> of innovative "substitute for" (s.v. substitute, v., 3b), as opposed to
> >> the
> >>> many it provides for "substitute(d) by/with":
> >>>
> >>> 1978   Pop. Mech. Oct. 174/1 (advt.)    Corvette winner may substitute
> >>> automobile for $14,000 cash.
> >>>
> >>> (The gloss for this sense is "To fill the place of (a person or thing)
> >>> with a replacement; = replace v. 2b")
> >>>
> >>> The 1943 passage also considerably antedates the controversial song
> lyric
> >>> from The Who's "Substitute" (released as single, 1966; Pete Townsend,
> >>> lyrics):
> >>>
> >>> Substitute me for him
> >>> Substitute my coke for gin
> >>> Substitute you for my Mum
> >>> At least I'll get my washing done
> >>>
> >>> --or, if you prefer performance rather than citation mode,
> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DeswQl-2DhcvU0&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=
> wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_
> xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=QZMKnWyQ0NuE5U9oX1ytQOgZKcQ5Mz
> ton3DgfN_2OpQ&e= .  There's some dispute in
> >> the
> >>> literature about whether the instances of "substitute" in the verse
> >>> exemplify the relevant lemma (= 'replace...with') or not, but even if
> you
> >>> agree with me that they do, that's still well after 1943.
> >>>
> >>> My problem with Jon's cite is that I don't understand it.  Are we sure,
> >>> given the context of the war movie, that it's the ship with a German
> crew
> >>> that's replacing the original Fifth Columnists' convoy ship and not
> vice
> >>> versa?  Jon? Anyone?  Weren't the Fifth Columnists on the same bad-guy
> >> side
> >>> as the Germans?  Do I need to watch "Yellow Canary" to find out?
> >>>
> >>> LH
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&
> c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxP
> IWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=axo_
> dUYItVREQbRHeOwshIh21VoSktGu2tXc16DwH-s&e=
> >>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&
> c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxP
> IWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=axo_
> dUYItVREQbRHeOwshIh21VoSktGu2tXc16DwH-s&e=
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&
> c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxP
> IWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=fGgLHsu_xCqPdmfOSQPYjnaUmE5RpuTTJmxpUUBP4gU&s=axo_
> dUYItVREQbRHeOwshIh21VoSktGu2tXc16DwH-s&e=
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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