[Ads-l] Amelioration of "infamous"?

Sat Sep 24 18:23:57 UTC 2016

Is it that "famous" could have negative associations, or that it's really value-neutral, just as "tall" or "brown-haired" would be?  Clearly "infamous" doesn't; traditionally (like "notorious") it meant 'famous in a bad way/for good deeds', but that doesn't mean we'd expect "famous" to be positive, just unmarked for positivity/negativity.  Lincoln and Booth are both famous, but (for most people) only one of them is infamous.

LH

> On Sep 24, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> I dunno. Blackbeard is a famous pirate and an infamous pirate too.
> 
> He was quite notorious.
> 
> JL
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Joel Berson <berson at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> OK, I may have gotten the direction backwards -- worsening of "famous"
>> rather than bettering of "infamous" -- but I was only trying to be
>> humorous, not pejoratious. Still, there must have been some sense that
>> "famous" could sometimes have negative associations.
>> 
>> 
>> Joel
>> 
>> 
>>      From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Amelioration of "infamous"?
>> 
>> Humorous pejoration instead, via afterthought, of "famous"?
>> 
>> JL
>> 
>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Joel Berson <berson at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> In the 1740s, there was “the famous or rather infamous Tom Bell”, an
>>> itinerant confidence man and dismissed Harvard student.  Quote from
>> Boston
>>> Post Boy, 22 Aug. 1743.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Joel
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 6:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Amelioration of "notoriety"
>>> 
>>> I
>>> 
>>> "Notoriety" for me (and, I believe, most people ) is negative or
>> (perhaps)
>>> slightly or humorously ambivalent.
>>> 
>>> The _Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus_ (2004) offers the following
>>> synonyms (only) for "notoriety":
>>> 
>>> "infamy, disrepute, ill repute, bad name, dishonor, discredit; _dated_
>> ill
>>> fame." "Positive" notoriety used to be called fame, celebrity, renown,
>>> public recognition,  prominence, eminence, greatness, stature, repute,
>>> stardom, popularity, etc.
>>> 
>>> Seems like plenty to choose from. Positive "notoriety" strikes me as an
>>> intentionally playful usage of the _People_ magazine type: cf.
>> "infamous."
>>> 
>>> II
>>> 
>>> For "notorious," Oxford gives
>>> 
>>> "infamous, scandalous; well known, famous, famed, legendary."
>>> 
>>> A typical context is given as "_a notorious gunman of the Old West_."
>>> 
>>> But I doubt one would speak of "the notorious ['legendary'] King Arthur,"
>>> "the notorious ['famous'] Abraham Lincoln," or "Robert Frost's notorious
>>> ['well known']  'Stopping by Woods."
>>> 
>>> Or am I misusing the Thesaurus?
>>> 
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Galen Buttitta <
>>> satorarepotenetoperarotas3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> For me, "notoriety" defaults to a positive connotation. "Notorious" is
>>>> negative.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 23, 2016, at 13:30, Marisa Brook <
>> marisa.brook at MAIL.UTORONTO.CA
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Michigan State lost a beloved alumnus recently at the age of 24 and
>> the
>>>> campus store has been handing out copies of his obituary.<
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__obits.mlive.com_obituaries_grandrapids_&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=jr9Rgl8GlVpGyBjydSioLY6StlkEkpWafVQ_x5QnWoQ&e= 
>>> obituary.aspx?pid=180805567>
>>>> After three graceful, glowing paragraphs describing the young man's
>>>> accomplishments and family, the fourth paragraph begins as follows:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Sadler gained notoriety for influencing others through
>> communication."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> After that, we get a description of his reportedly well-liked social
>>>> media presence, which is said to have involved "humor, wit, and
>>> philosophy".
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Seems to be a use of the word to mean 'popularity' (or at least
>>>> 'considerable attention') - in a non-facetious obituary in a medium
>> where
>>>> the words were likely to have been carefully chosen. I'm intrigued. Has
>>>> anyone else noticed cases of this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ***************************
>>>>> Marisa Brook
>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African
>>> Languages
>>>>> Michigan State University
>>>>> East Lansing, Michigan 48824-1027 USA
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__linglang.msu.edu_people_faculty_marisa-2Dbrook_&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=GetdJIkJHZLUl7YyLml1auHkwF5CEGeFq-kPDJ5-N_0&e= 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e= 
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e= 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e= 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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