[Ads-l] Amelioration of "infamous"?
Laurence Horn
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Sat Sep 24 18:23:57 UTC 2016
Is it that "famous" could have negative associations, or that it's really value-neutral, just as "tall" or "brown-haired" would be? Clearly "infamous" doesn't; traditionally (like "notorious") it meant 'famous in a bad way/for good deeds', but that doesn't mean we'd expect "famous" to be positive, just unmarked for positivity/negativity. Lincoln and Booth are both famous, but (for most people) only one of them is infamous.
LH
> On Sep 24, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> I dunno. Blackbeard is a famous pirate and an infamous pirate too.
>
> He was quite notorious.
>
> JL
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Joel Berson <berson at att.net> wrote:
>
>> OK, I may have gotten the direction backwards -- worsening of "famous"
>> rather than bettering of "infamous" -- but I was only trying to be
>> humorous, not pejoratious. Still, there must have been some sense that
>> "famous" could sometimes have negative associations.
>>
>>
>> Joel
>>
>>
>> From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 7:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Amelioration of "infamous"?
>>
>> Humorous pejoration instead, via afterthought, of "famous"?
>>
>> JL
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Joel Berson <berson at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In the 1740s, there was “the famous or rather infamous Tom Bell”, an
>>> itinerant confidence man and dismissed Harvard student. Quote from
>> Boston
>>> Post Boy, 22 Aug. 1743.
>>>
>>>
>>> Joel
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 6:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Amelioration of "notoriety"
>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>> "Notoriety" for me (and, I believe, most people ) is negative or
>> (perhaps)
>>> slightly or humorously ambivalent.
>>>
>>> The _Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus_ (2004) offers the following
>>> synonyms (only) for "notoriety":
>>>
>>> "infamy, disrepute, ill repute, bad name, dishonor, discredit; _dated_
>> ill
>>> fame." "Positive" notoriety used to be called fame, celebrity, renown,
>>> public recognition, prominence, eminence, greatness, stature, repute,
>>> stardom, popularity, etc.
>>>
>>> Seems like plenty to choose from. Positive "notoriety" strikes me as an
>>> intentionally playful usage of the _People_ magazine type: cf.
>> "infamous."
>>>
>>> II
>>>
>>> For "notorious," Oxford gives
>>>
>>> "infamous, scandalous; well known, famous, famed, legendary."
>>>
>>> A typical context is given as "_a notorious gunman of the Old West_."
>>>
>>> But I doubt one would speak of "the notorious ['legendary'] King Arthur,"
>>> "the notorious ['famous'] Abraham Lincoln," or "Robert Frost's notorious
>>> ['well known'] 'Stopping by Woods."
>>>
>>> Or am I misusing the Thesaurus?
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Galen Buttitta <
>>> satorarepotenetoperarotas3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For me, "notoriety" defaults to a positive connotation. "Notorious" is
>>>> negative.
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 23, 2016, at 13:30, Marisa Brook <
>> marisa.brook at MAIL.UTORONTO.CA
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Michigan State lost a beloved alumnus recently at the age of 24 and
>> the
>>>> campus store has been handing out copies of his obituary.<
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__obits.mlive.com_obituaries_grandrapids_&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=jr9Rgl8GlVpGyBjydSioLY6StlkEkpWafVQ_x5QnWoQ&e=
>>> obituary.aspx?pid=180805567>
>>>> After three graceful, glowing paragraphs describing the young man's
>>>> accomplishments and family, the fourth paragraph begins as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Sadler gained notoriety for influencing others through
>> communication."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After that, we get a description of his reportedly well-liked social
>>>> media presence, which is said to have involved "humor, wit, and
>>> philosophy".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to be a use of the word to mean 'popularity' (or at least
>>>> 'considerable attention') - in a non-facetious obituary in a medium
>> where
>>>> the words were likely to have been carefully chosen. I'm intrigued. Has
>>>> anyone else noticed cases of this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ***************************
>>>>> Marisa Brook
>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African
>>> Languages
>>>>> Michigan State University
>>>>> East Lansing, Michigan 48824-1027 USA
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__linglang.msu.edu_people_faculty_marisa-2Dbrook_&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=GetdJIkJHZLUl7YyLml1auHkwF5CEGeFq-kPDJ5-N_0&e=
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e=
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e=
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e=
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e=
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e=
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e=
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=dQUDIs5YgvvDM54z7EAxdJ8PXHhYpdkjDU-jtgfYVS8&s=lUIRaLeysimDsXfIr1TTMGbm2kRv94W6CGkh4eC3b-w&e=
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