[Ads-l] Adage: Traduttori traditori (Translators, traitors)

[ADSGarson O'Toole]

Thanks Ben. While searching I came across some instances of the longer
version of the saying. Interestingly, an 1824 Italian book suggested
that the phrase was an English proverb.

Year: 1824 (M.DCCC.XXIV)
Title: Aloune prose del conte Giambatista Giovio
Publisher: Per Giovanni Silvestri, Milano

https://books.google.com/books?id=Wl80AAAAMAAJ&q=traduttori#v=snippet&

[Begin excerpt]
E un proverbio inglese, e quasi una verità d'ogni idioma, che i
traduttori sono traditori.
[End excerpt]

To maintain symmetry an English book from 1847 stated that the phrase
was an Italian saying:

Year: 1847
Title: The Book of Table-Talk by Several Contributors
Volume 1 of 2
Chapter 34: Mistakes of Translators
Start Page 173, Quote Page
Publisher: C. Cox, London

https://books.google.com/books?id=BDMCAAAAQAAJ&q=%22are+traitors%22#v=snippet&

[Begin excerpt]
According to an Italian saying, I traduttori sono traditori, or,
"Translators are traitors."
[End excerpt]

Garson


On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> Garson beat me to it, but I'll just note that the Italian proverb
> "Traduttori, traditori" appeared in English sources as early as 1850:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=ATsZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA300
>
> It's also perhaps notable that the canonical version of the proverb simply
> presents the two plural nouns in an implicit equation, rather than a less
> elliptical formulation like "I traduttori sono traditori."
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:14 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>
>> Laurence Horn wrote:
>> > OK, QI and other sleuths—isn’t this, as I assumed, originally from the
>> > Italian:  traduttore, traditore?  Or is the Spanish version (which I had
>> > never previously encountered) earlier?  At least we know it didn’t start
>> > out in English (or French).  But, given the plural forms this isn’t
>> actually
>> > mainstream Spanish anyway, right?
>>
>> "The Concise Columbia Dictionary of Quotations" presents an Italian
>> version of the saying without an attribution or date.
>>
>> [ref] 1989, The Concise Columbia Dictionary of Quotations by Robert
>> Andrews, Topic: Translation, Quote Page 267, Columbia University
>> Press, New York. (Verified with scans)[/ref]
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> Translation
>>
>> Traduttori, traditori.
>> Translators, traitors.
>> Italian proverb
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> I only searched in Google Books, and I do not know how many Italian
>> books are indexed.
>>
>> The adage appears in the 1754 commentary written by "M. Coste" about
>> one of Montaigne's essays. The commentary is in French, but the adage
>> "Traduttori traditori" is given in Italian.
>>
>> Year: 1754 (M.DCC.LIV)
>> Title: Essais de Montaigne: Avec les Notes de M. Coste
>> Volume: 4
>> Quote Page 113
>> Publisher: Chez Jean Nourse & Vaillant, a Londres
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=JaYDAAAAQAAJ&q=traduttori#v=snippet&
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> C'est à quoi n'ont jamais pensé certains beaux-esprits, qui croient
>> faire merveille d'anéantir nos vieux Auteurs en les traduisant en beau
>> François moderne, (le plus moderne est toûjours le plus beau)
>> Traduttori traditori, qu'on pourroit comparer à des Peintres
>> médiocres, qui après avoir copié les tableaux de Raphaël, de Paul
>> Veronese, du Titien, &c. jetteroient au feu ces divins originaux.
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> Garson
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>> wrote:
>> > OK, QI and other sleuths—isn’t this, as I assumed, originally from the
>> Italian:  traduttore, traditore?  Or is the Spanish version (which I had
>> never previously encountered) earlier?  At least we know it didn’t start
>> out in English (or French).  But, given the plural forms this isn’t
>> actually mainstream Spanish anyway, right?
>> >
>> > LH
>> >
>> >> On Apr 2, 2017, at 1:23 PM, Dave Hause <dwhause at CABLEMO.NET> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Of course, labels aren't the only place.  Many years ago, my
>> dual-citizenship Venezuelan-Expat-American roommate taught me "Tradutore
>> son traidore." Translators are traitors.
>>
>>
>
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