[Ads-l] hog molly

Fri Mar 2 02:21:24 UTC 2018

In 18th C England, a "Molly House" was a brothel for homosexual men.

If in football an earlier meaning of hogmolly was "chubby fellows who
really don't want to play", that makes the question of how the term got
into Dave Gettleman's vocabulary as a positive quality all the more
puzzling.

You young folks will forgive an old codger for not writing "begs the
question", I hope.

GAT

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:30 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:

> BTW, isn't the older meaning of 'hogmolly' a weakling?
>
> On Mar 1, 2018 5:46 PM, "Peter Reitan" <pjreitan at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The word "Molly" in the name of the fish may come from "mullet," as "hog
> > mullet" is listed as an alternate name for the "hog sucker."
> >
> >
> > Presumably "hog" refers to being big and strong.  The word "Molly" in
> "hog
> > molly," in the football sense, may have originally been related to
> > mollycoddle, as suggested by the earliest example of a football "hog
> molly"
> > I found:
> >
> >
> > "Every college football coaching staff has a hatchet man . . .  A good
> > hatchet man will run off all the 'hog mollies,' or chubby fellows who
> > really don't want to play."
> >
> > Tampa Bay Times, December 18, 1966, page 3-C.
> >
> >
> > Others using the word to mean large may associated that term with
> > "humongous," as suggested by a comment by an ex-professional football
> > player who trained and competed as a sumo wrestler in Japan:
> >
> >
> > "'These guys are humongous - I call 'em big hog mollies,' he said.  'It's
> > a nickname I gave them, and they started calling each other hog
> mollies.'"
> >
> > Arizona Daily Star (Tuscon), December 22, 1990, page 5-B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 10:39 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: hog molly
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: hog molly
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------------
> >
> > > On Mar 1, 2018, at 1:04 PM, George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> =
> > wrote:
> > >=20
> > > =E2=80=8BA column by Art Stapleton of the North Jersey Record on the =
> > New York
> > > Giants football team that was printed in today's (March 1) issue of =
> > the
> > > Poughkeepsie Journal and no doubt in some other newspapers in the =
> > Gannett
> > > chain, quotes Dave Gettleman, the new general manager of the Giants as
> > > saying that having outstanding guards on the offensive line was very
> > > important; when the New Orleans Saints won the Super Bowl "they had =
> > two hog
> > > molly guards. . . ." =E2=80=8B
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > DARE
> > > =E2=80=8B has
> > > "hog molly" as a
> > > fish of the sucker family
> > > =E2=80=8B, =E2=80=8B
> > > from 1877, including=E2=80=8B
> > > =E2=80=8B
> > > :
> > >=20
> > > 1928  Outdoor Life 35/2 OK, I made a leisurely, light-hearted cast =
> > with a
> > > big =E2=80=9Chogmolly=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94I never knew where the
> Choctaws =
> > got the name. He was a
> > > sucker-mouthed individual with a pied or mottled skin. . . I figured =
> > he was
> > > just about what should run a big lineside bass crazy.
> > > 1933  AmSp 8.1.49 Ozarks, Hogmolly. . . A fish of the sucker family. =
> > The
> > > term is in common use among the Choctaws in Oklahoma.
> > > 1939  Hall Coll.  ceTN, The creek was full of fish=E2=80=94bass, white
> =
> > suckers,
> > > silversides, red-horses, hog mollies.
> > > 1954  Milwaukee Jrl. (WI) 14 Mar sec 4 4/7 swMO, Jim Owen, float trip
> > > outfitter on Ozark streams for 20 years, has sent many customers a
> > > dictionary of hillbilly outdoors terms, as follows: . . Hogmolly, a =
> > sucker.
> > >=20
> > > =E2=80=8BThe OED also has it in that sense from 1877.
> > >=20
> > > I don't know where Gettleman is from.
> > >=20
> > > He may be thinking of the term as "a sucker" (fish) and transferring =
> > it to
> > > "sucker" (generic person).
> > > The OED has =E2=80=8B
> > > Sucker 1b.  fig. A greenhorn, simpleton. orig. N. Amer.,
> > > dating to the early 19th C.
> > > but the OED doesn't have "sucker" in the sense of "thing", as in "Let =
> > me
> > > =E2=80=8Btake a =E2=80=8B
> > > look at that sucker".
> > >=20
> > > Green's Dictionary of Slang has "sucker" as
> > > sense 3 (c) [mid-19C+] a person (occas. animal) or object, =
> > irrespective of
> > > status.
> > > =E2=80=8Bor
> > > sense 3 (e) [1910s+] a general term of address, either derog. or =
> > teasing.
> > >=20
> > > And reinforcing the connection might be the thought that a hog is a =
> > large
> > > and powerful animal.
> > >=20
> > > Green's Dictionary of Slang has "
> > > =E2=80=8Bhog" as (sense
> > >=20
> > > 3
> > > )
> > > a (large and powerful) vehicle [fig. ref. to the size and power of a =
> > SE
> > > *hog*]
> > > =E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B
> > > & (sense
> > > 4
> > > )
> > > of those possessing =E2=80=98masculine=E2=80=99 characteristics [the =
> > toughness of the
> > > animal].=E2=80=8B
> > >=20
> > > =E2=80=8BWasn't there a briefly-celebrated football line that referred
> =
> > to itself as
> > > "the hogs"?  (Not "briefly" celebrated by the team's fans, of course; =
> > only
> > > by the rest of us.)
> > >=20
> > > GAT  =E2=80=8B
> >
> > Yes, that of the Redskins (if you=E2=80=99ll excuse the slur).  The =
> > Arkansas Razorbacks sometimes self-designate as Hogs (or maybe
> it=E2=80=99=
> > s Hawgs), motivated by the fact that that=E2=80=99s what razorbacks are =
> > a kind of. =20
> >
> > I assume there=E2=80=99s no connection between the hog molly and =
> > Hogmanay, although you=E2=80=99d probably want to steer clear of hog =
> > mollies on New Year=E2=80=99s Eve just in case. =20
> >
> > LH
> >  =20
> >
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> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
George A. Thompson
The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books.
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.

But when aroused at the Trump of Doom / Ye shall start, bold kings, from
your lowly tomb. . .
L. H. Sigourney, "Burial of Mazeen", Poems.  Boston, 1827, p. 112

The Trump of Doom -- also known as The Dunghill Toadstool.  (Here's a
picture of his great-grandfather.)
http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-gillray/an-excrescence---a-fungus-alias-a-toadstool-upon-a-dunghill/3851

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