[Ads-l] the bee's knees (1920)

Sat Oct 20 07:34:54 UTC 2018

> in Macy's window

Who is "Macy"? Not the actor, William H., I presume.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:06 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Don't you mean, "kiss your ass at high noon in Macy's window"?
>
> JL
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:42 PM Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > bee's knees and petunia sauce
> >
> > Have you tried it with the frim fram sauce with the ossen fay
> > With shifafa on the side? It's the cat's meow!
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:41 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Chronicling America turns up numerous references to "bee's knees" (but
> > not
> > > "*the* bee's knees") as far back as 1902, usually as a supposed gourmet
> > > dish - "bee's knees and petunia sauce" shows up early and more than
> once.
> > > Here's a late example that shows "bee's knees" were still a matter of
> > > culinary interest 14 years later:
> > >
> > > 1916 South Bend News-Times (Aug. 2) 4: Strawberry sandwiches, peanut
> > > cookies, toasted marshmallows, and other airy-fairy dishes which
> suggest
> > > the "bee's knees and gnat's knuckles" of burlesque stage memory.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:09 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, Peter! That one had eluded my searches. Here's the
> > Newspaper.com
> > > > clipping:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/24670931/bees_knees/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:42 PM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Bees knees" superlative US 1919.  In a golfing anecdote about the
> > most
> > > > > amazing wind-affected shot ever:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sioux City Journal, July 17, 1919, page 12.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Begin excerpt] "But that was not the worst one.  Another time I
> saw
> > a
> > > > man
> > > > > taking his approach shot, and he made a good one, but as Col. Bogey
> > is
> > > my
> > > > > judge, the wind caught that ball and carried it all the way back to
> > the
> > > > tee
> > > > > from which he started."
> > > > >
> > > > > As Eddie Styles would say, that one was the bees' knees.
> > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > >
> > > > > Eddie Styles was a well-known golfer at the time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf
> of
> > > Ben
> > > > > Zimmer <bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 12:22 PM
> > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > > Subject: the bee's knees (1920)
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject:      the bee's knees (1920)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > HDAS and OED have "the bee's knees" in the sense of "a superlative
> > > > > person/thing" from 1923. GDoS has it from 1922 (except for one
> > > > questionable
> > > > > outlier -- see below), and Hugo gives some additional cites from
> that
> > > > year
> > > > > in this English Stack Exchange thread:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/47088/where-does-the-phrase-the-bees-knees-originate-from
> > > > >
> > > > > In that same thread, Phil M. Jones cites an example from 1920:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > The National, Nov.-Dec. 1920, p. 358, col. 3
> > > > > "How Movie Dope is Written," by Stewart Arnold Wright
> > > > > For lack of something better, I said to [Ernest] Hilliard, "Well,
> > what
> > > do
> > > > > you think of this 'Annabel Lee' picture?"
> > > > > "It's the bee's knees," he replied. "If it doesn't knock Broadway
> on
> > > its
> > > > > ear, I'll kiss your Adam's apple in Wanamaker's display window at
> 12
> > > > > o'clock noon."
> > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=ytVOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA358
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Here it is earlier in 1920, quoting a delegate to the Democratic
> > > National
> > > > > Convention in San Francisco:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/24666781/bees_knees/
> > > > > San Francisco Examiner, July 5, 1920, p. 2, col. 6
> > > > > First Delegate: "Well, now ain't that the bee's knees! Why, I'm
> > having
> > > a
> > > > > swell time here, Swell. This is a great town."
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Even earlier that year, in the Feb. 8, 1920 issue of the St. Louis
> > > > > Post-Dispatch, there are references to a vaudeville show called
> "The
> > > > Bee's
> > > > > Knees" (presented by Joe Laurie, Jr.), but there's no indication of
> > > > whether
> > > > > the show used it in the superlative sense or for some other
> fanciful
> > > > > purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/24668442/the_bees_knees/
> > > > > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/24668460/the_bees_knees/
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see anything clearly related to the superlative sense
> before
> > > > that,
> > > > > though "bee's knees" did appear in various contexts as a kind of
> > > nonsense
> > > > > phrase, as noted by Hugo on English Stack Exchange as well as by
> The
> > > > Phrase
> > > > > Finder:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-bees-knees.html
> > > > >
> > > > > GDoS has a dubious cite dated to 1905 in a letter by the Australian
> > > folk
> > > > > singer Duke Tritton:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > 1905 Duke Tritton's Letter n.p.: I'm teaching Mary and all the Tin
> > Lids
> > > > in
> > > > > the district to Dark An' Dim, and they reckon I'm the bees knees,
> > ants
> > > > > pants and nits tits all rolled into one.
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > The full text of the rhyming-slang-stuffed letter can be found
> here:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.tsukuba-g.ac.jp/library/kiyou/98/12.yokose.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > On Twitter, Jonathon Green says that further research has dated the
> > > > letter
> > > > > to "somewhere in the teens":
> > > > >
> > > > > https://twitter.com/MisterSlang/status/1053315085228224513
> > > > >
> > > > > But even that would be an outlier given that there's no US evidence
> > > > before
> > > > > 1920 (and there's no evidence that the superlative meaning of the
> > > phrase
> > > > > came from Australia). So either it's a case of independent
> invention,
> > > or
> > > > > Duke Tritton's letter was actually written later, in the '20s.
> > > > >
> > > > > --bgz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -Wilson
> > -----
> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > -Mark Twain
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
-Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org