[Ads-l] the bee's knees (1920)

Sat Oct 20 19:12:09 UTC 2018

I've got a book around here somewhere (heh!) that credits a named Broadway
wit with originating this challenge.  His version was "on the steps of St.
Patrick's Cathedral when Easter Mass is letting out".

GAT

GAT

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Don't you mean, "kiss your ass at high noon in Macy's window"?
>
> JL
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:42 PM Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > bee's knees and petunia sauce
> >
> > Have you tried it with the frim fram sauce with the ossen fay
> > With shifafa on the side? It's the cat's meow!
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:41 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Chronicling America turns up numerous references to "bee's knees" (but
> > not
> > > "*the* bee's knees") as far back as 1902, usually as a supposed gourmet
> > > dish - "bee's knees and petunia sauce" shows up early and more than
> once.
> > > Here's a late example that shows "bee's knees" were still a matter of
> > > culinary interest 14 years later:
> > >
> > > 1916 South Bend News-Times (Aug. 2) 4: Strawberry sandwiches, peanut
> > > cookies, toasted marshmallows, and other airy-fairy dishes which
> suggest
> > > the "bee's knees and gnat's knuckles" of burlesque stage memory.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:09 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, Peter! That one had eluded my searches. Here's the
> > Newspaper.com
> > > > clipping:
> > > >
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> newspapers.com_clip_24670931_bees-5Fknees_&d=DwIBaQ&c=
> slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=_hE8ptAre4pg7i4BsJ_
> ltx2_muHRfXMj8lmm3nOacHM&e=
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:42 PM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Bees knees" superlative US 1919.  In a golfing anecdote about the
> > most
> > > > > amazing wind-affected shot ever:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sioux City Journal, July 17, 1919, page 12.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Begin excerpt] "But that was not the worst one.  Another time I
> saw
> > a
> > > > man
> > > > > taking his approach shot, and he made a good one, but as Col. Bogey
> > is
> > > my
> > > > > judge, the wind caught that ball and carried it all the way back to
> > the
> > > > tee
> > > > > from which he started."
> > > > >
> > > > > As Eddie Styles would say, that one was the bees' knees.
> > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > >
> > > > > Eddie Styles was a well-known golfer at the time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf
> of
> > > Ben
> > > > > Zimmer <bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 12:22 PM
> > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > > Subject: the bee's knees (1920)
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject:      the bee's knees (1920)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > HDAS and OED have "the bee's knees" in the sense of "a superlative
> > > > > person/thing" from 1923. GDoS has it from 1922 (except for one
> > > > questionable
> > > > > outlier -- see below), and Hugo gives some additional cites from
> that
> > > > year
> > > > > in this English Stack Exchange thread:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__
> english.stackexchange.com_questions_47088_where-2Ddoes-
> 2Dthe-2Dphrase-2Dthe-2Dbees-2Dknees-2Doriginate-2Dfrom&d=
> DwIBaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=uTGa6kk8YEIJo1GYc_
> ceScwI0gy1SYtI4_z_YYxYmWk&e=
> > > > >
> > > > > In that same thread, Phil M. Jones cites an example from 1920:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > The National, Nov.-Dec. 1920, p. 358, col. 3
> > > > > "How Movie Dope is Written," by Stewart Arnold Wright
> > > > > For lack of something better, I said to [Ernest] Hilliard, "Well,
> > what
> > > do
> > > > > you think of this 'Annabel Lee' picture?"
> > > > > "It's the bee's knees," he replied. "If it doesn't knock Broadway
> on
> > > its
> > > > > ear, I'll kiss your Adam's apple in Wanamaker's display window at
> 12
> > > > > o'clock noon."
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__books.
> google.com_books-3Fid-3DytVOAQAAMAAJ-26pg-3DPA358&d=
> DwIBaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=4TdAmI6tPerM0MqEJIVtQbzD-
> K3JLthdJDr9Udjl_0Y&e=
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Here it is earlier in 1920, quoting a delegate to the Democratic
> > > National
> > > > > Convention in San Francisco:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> newspapers.com_clip_24666781_bees-5Fknees_&d=DwIBaQ&c=
> slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=iGNWpDPlUpKWp_
> iGcVSAqR0XMp5mOOvqfG_DjnfJkzk&e=
> > > > > San Francisco Examiner, July 5, 1920, p. 2, col. 6
> > > > > First Delegate: "Well, now ain't that the bee's knees! Why, I'm
> > having
> > > a
> > > > > swell time here, Swell. This is a great town."
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Even earlier that year, in the Feb. 8, 1920 issue of the St. Louis
> > > > > Post-Dispatch, there are references to a vaudeville show called
> "The
> > > > Bee's
> > > > > Knees" (presented by Joe Laurie, Jr.), but there's no indication of
> > > > whether
> > > > > the show used it in the superlative sense or for some other
> fanciful
> > > > > purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> newspapers.com_clip_24668442_the-5Fbees-5Fknees_&d=DwIBaQ&
> c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=YlKcFeoU4qVf2CqmBLvys9ccj5y_
> KbR_7jkW5lBZbUk&e=
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> newspapers.com_clip_24668460_the-5Fbees-5Fknees_&d=DwIBaQ&
> c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=CHsrAdLal3LfO6LuLgbajcoqJrQCyW
> 6CFkYR6POBaZ0&e=
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see anything clearly related to the superlative sense
> before
> > > > that,
> > > > > though "bee's knees" did appear in various contexts as a kind of
> > > nonsense
> > > > > phrase, as noted by Hugo on English Stack Exchange as well as by
> The
> > > > Phrase
> > > > > Finder:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> phrases.org.uk_meanings_the-2Dbees-2Dknees.html&d=DwIBaQ&
> c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=EYe8cPHoZxcfvK3m9b1OOIstfV34wf
> rd3sUPvRVVduo&e=
> > > > >
> > > > > GDoS has a dubious cite dated to 1905 in a letter by the Australian
> > > folk
> > > > > singer Duke Tritton:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > 1905 Duke Tritton's Letter n.p.: I'm teaching Mary and all the Tin
> > Lids
> > > > in
> > > > > the district to Dark An' Dim, and they reckon I'm the bees knees,
> > ants
> > > > > pants and nits tits all rolled into one.
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > The full text of the rhyming-slang-stuffed letter can be found
> here:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> tsukuba-2Dg.ac.jp_library_kiyou_98_12.yokose.pdf&d=
> DwIBaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=HB3xoV8QarXgqIlRtFzGTBcTistt3Z
> oUYUnKJi_rcyo&e=
> > > > >
> > > > > On Twitter, Jonathon Green says that further research has dated the
> > > > letter
> > > > > to "somewhere in the teens":
> > > > >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__
> twitter.com_MisterSlang_status_1053315085228224513&d=
> DwIBaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=DyJJN9VV6DKpcnGCELef6Xfzpv-
> OMOd8B_55Tjvng6I&e=
> > > > >
> > > > > But even that would be an outlier given that there's no US evidence
> > > > before
> > > > > 1920 (and there's no evidence that the superlative meaning of the
> > > phrase
> > > > > came from Australia). So either it's a case of independent
> invention,
> > > or
> > > > > Duke Tritton's letter was actually written later, in the '20s.
> > > > >
> > > > > --bgz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIBaQ&
> c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=BfSqanDutn4LJpg9d6HqcWtapnoEch
> CSVtDxfzcaSUs&e=
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIBaQ&
> c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=BfSqanDutn4LJpg9d6HqcWtapnoEch
> CSVtDxfzcaSUs&e=
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -Wilson
> > -----
> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > -Mark Twain
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIBaQ&
> c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=BfSqanDutn4LJpg9d6HqcWtapnoEch
> CSVtDxfzcaSUs&e=
> >
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIBaQ&
> c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=BoERO-
> N3hT5OvGgtfOguBOlfIDUW2Yfrk3YA6YFZI4s&s=BfSqanDutn4LJpg9d6HqcWtapnoEch
> CSVtDxfzcaSUs&e=
>

-- 
George A. Thompson
The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books.
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.

But when aroused at the Trump of Doom / Ye shall start, bold kings, from
your lowly tomb. . .
L. H. Sigourney, "Burial of Mazeen", Poems.  Boston, 1827, p. 112

The Trump of Doom -- also known as The Dunghill Toadstool.  (Here's a
picture of his great-grandfather.)
http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-gillray/an-excrescence---a-fungus-alias-a-toadstool-upon-a-dunghill/3851

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org