[Ads-l] Berkeley and gender neutral words

Sun Jul 21 01:13:50 UTC 2019

Thank you, I don't think I was aware of women priests in those
denominations. Anyway, I clearly wasn't thinking of them.

Mark

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 10:38 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:

> > On Jul 20, 2019, at 2:08 AM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> >> the religions most strongly associated with the word *priest* in the US
> > and
> >> (most? all?) other Anglophone societies restrict that function to males.
> >
> > True only of Catholicism.
>
> That was my point; Anglican/Episcopalian priests, whether male or female,
> have always been called priests, and have been around since the 1970s.  Cf.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women_in_the_Anglican_Communion
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 12:46 AM Mark Mandel <markamandel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> IMHO, *priestess* and *priest* are exactly parallel, but it happens that
> >> the religions most strongly associated with the word *priest* in the US
> and
> >> (most? all?) other Anglophone societies restrict that function to males.
> >>
> >> MAM
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 11:48 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> And “priestess” (=/= ‘female priest).  And then there’s
> >>> “governor”/“governess" and other asymmetrical pairs of that ilk.
> >>>
> >>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 11:45 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> See also, "Huntress."
> >>>>
> >>>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> >>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 6:16:23 PM
> >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>> Subject: Re: Berkeley and gender neutral words
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Subject:      Re: Berkeley and gender neutral words
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> "Goddess" is somehow doing well.
> >>>>
> >>>> The neutrality craze is based in part on the elementary fallacy that a
> >>>> word's meaning is dictated by its etymology.  Another significant
> basis
> >>> is
> >>>> the a priori belief that speakers of English are as sensitive to
> nuance
> >>> as
> >>>> are a subset of people with Ph.Ds and must, in any case, be protected
> >>> from
> >>>> "-man" words, which are dangerously, irremediably sexist and malign.
> >>>>
> >>>> JL
> >>>>
> >>>> JL
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 8:42 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Mark Mandel <markamandel at GMAIL.COM>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The Latin means "No one is an heir or a living person.=E2=80=9D
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mark=E2=80=99s finger meant =E2=80=9Cof=E2=80=9D rather than
> >>> =E2=80=9Cor=
> >>>> =E2=80=9D; the claim as it stands is
> >>>>> rather too strong.  More seriously, I don=E2=80=99t get the argument
> >> to
> >>> r=
> >>>> eplace
> >>>>> =E2=80=9Cheir=E2=80=9D, which is parallel to =E2=80=9Cactor=E2=80=9D
> >>> and =
> >>>> arguably also to =E2=80=9Cpoet=E2=80=9D.  By all
> >>>>> means, let=E2=80=99s dump =E2=80=9Cheiress=E2=80=9D,
> >>> =E2=80=9Cadventuress=
> >>>> =E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cactress=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csculptress=E2=80=9D, or
> >>>>> =E2=80=9Cpoetess=E2=80=9D, although it could be (and has been) argued
> >>> tha=
> >>>> t =E2=80=9Cactress=E2=80=9D
> >>>>> performs a service that the others don=E2=80=99t, at least until
> >>> sex-neut=
> >>>> ral
> >>>>> casting becomes universal; the tradeoff for sex specification may be
> >>> deem=
> >>>> ed
> >>>>> worth it.  =E2=80=9CWaitress=E2=80=9D is another case, and I grant we
> >>> all=
> >>>> have different
> >>>>> cutoff points. (Mine is rather different from Jon=E2=80=99s, for
> >>> example.=
> >>>> )  But the
> >>>>> fact that =E2=80=9Cheiress=E2=80=9D can be plausibly argued to be
> >>> sexist =
> >>>> on the grounds
> >>>>> that it marks sex of the referent when it=E2=80=99s irrelevant, I
> >>> don=E2=
> >>>> =80=99t see why
> >>>>> that consideration should infect =E2=80=9Cheir=E2=80=9D, which as
> >> noted
> >>> b=
> >>>> elow really is
> >>>>> just =E2=80=98one who=E2=80=99, on grounds of both usage and
> >> etymology.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> LH
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:35 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> >>>>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The word [*heir*] is correctly applied to either a male or a
> female,
> >>>>>>> although,
> >>>>>>> in the latter sense, heiress n.   has been in general use since
> 17th
> >>>>>>> cent. In Law a person is not called an heir to any property until,
> >>>>>>> through the death of its possessor, he becomes entitled to it (
> >>>>>>> *nemo est heres viventis*).
> >>>>>>> [End excerpt]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --=20
> >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >>> truth."
> >>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > -Wilson
> > -----
> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > -Mark Twain
> >
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> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

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