[Ads-l] Berkeley and gender neutral words

Sun Jul 21 16:10:15 UTC 2019

Sexist Romans used "sacerdos" for both priests and priestesses.

JL

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 9:14 PM Mark Mandel <markamandel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you, I don't think I was aware of women priests in those
> denominations. Anyway, I clearly wasn't thinking of them.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 10:38 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 20, 2019, at 2:08 AM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > >
> > >> the religions most strongly associated with the word *priest* in the
> US
> > > and
> > >> (most? all?) other Anglophone societies restrict that function to
> males.
> > >
> > > True only of Catholicism.
> >
> > That was my point; Anglican/Episcopalian priests, whether male or female,
> > have always been called priests, and have been around since the 1970s.
> Cf.
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women_in_the_Anglican_Communion
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 12:46 AM Mark Mandel <markamandel at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> IMHO, *priestess* and *priest* are exactly parallel, but it happens
> that
> > >> the religions most strongly associated with the word *priest* in the
> US
> > and
> > >> (most? all?) other Anglophone societies restrict that function to
> males.
> > >>
> > >> MAM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 11:48 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> And “priestess” (=/= ‘female priest).  And then there’s
> > >>> “governor”/“governess" and other asymmetrical pairs of that ilk.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 11:45 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> See also, "Huntress."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ________________________________
> > >>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf
> of
> > >>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 6:16:23 PM
> > >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >>>> Subject: Re: Berkeley and gender neutral words
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>> Subject:      Re: Berkeley and gender neutral words
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Goddess" is somehow doing well.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The neutrality craze is based in part on the elementary fallacy
> that a
> > >>>> word's meaning is dictated by its etymology.  Another significant
> > basis
> > >>> is
> > >>>> the a priori belief that speakers of English are as sensitive to
> > nuance
> > >>> as
> > >>>> are a subset of people with Ph.Ds and must, in any case, be
> protected
> > >>> from
> > >>>> "-man" words, which are dangerously, irremediably sexist and malign.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> JL
> > >>>>
> > >>>> JL
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 8:42 PM Laurence Horn <
> laurence.horn at yale.edu
> > >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Mark Mandel <markamandel at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The Latin means "No one is an heir or a living person.=E2=80=9D
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Mark=E2=80=99s finger meant =E2=80=9Cof=E2=80=9D rather than
> > >>> =E2=80=9Cor=
> > >>>> =E2=80=9D; the claim as it stands is
> > >>>>> rather too strong.  More seriously, I don=E2=80=99t get the
> argument
> > >> to
> > >>> r=
> > >>>> eplace
> > >>>>> =E2=80=9Cheir=E2=80=9D, which is parallel to
> =E2=80=9Cactor=E2=80=9D
> > >>> and =
> > >>>> arguably also to =E2=80=9Cpoet=E2=80=9D.  By all
> > >>>>> means, let=E2=80=99s dump =E2=80=9Cheiress=E2=80=9D,
> > >>> =E2=80=9Cadventuress=
> > >>>> =E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cactress=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csculptress=E2=80=9D,
> or
> > >>>>> =E2=80=9Cpoetess=E2=80=9D, although it could be (and has been)
> argued
> > >>> tha=
> > >>>> t =E2=80=9Cactress=E2=80=9D
> > >>>>> performs a service that the others don=E2=80=99t, at least until
> > >>> sex-neut=
> > >>>> ral
> > >>>>> casting becomes universal; the tradeoff for sex specification may
> be
> > >>> deem=
> > >>>> ed
> > >>>>> worth it.  =E2=80=9CWaitress=E2=80=9D is another case, and I grant
> we
> > >>> all=
> > >>>> have different
> > >>>>> cutoff points. (Mine is rather different from Jon=E2=80=99s, for
> > >>> example.=
> > >>>> )  But the
> > >>>>> fact that =E2=80=9Cheiress=E2=80=9D can be plausibly argued to be
> > >>> sexist =
> > >>>> on the grounds
> > >>>>> that it marks sex of the referent when it=E2=80=99s irrelevant, I
> > >>> don=E2=
> > >>>> =80=99t see why
> > >>>>> that consideration should infect =E2=80=9Cheir=E2=80=9D, which as
> > >> noted
> > >>> b=
> > >>>> elow really is
> > >>>>> just =E2=80=98one who=E2=80=99, on grounds of both usage and
> > >> etymology.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> LH
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:35 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > >>>>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The word [*heir*] is correctly applied to either a male or a
> > female,
> > >>>>>>> although,
> > >>>>>>> in the latter sense, heiress n.   has been in general use since
> > 17th
> > >>>>>>> cent. In Law a person is not called an heir to any property
> until,
> > >>>>>>> through the death of its possessor, he becomes entitled to it (
> > >>>>>>> *nemo est heres viventis*).
> > >>>>>>> [End excerpt]
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --=20
> > >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > >>> truth."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > -Wilson
> > > -----
> > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > -Mark Twain
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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