[Ads-l] Lewis Porter on the origins of "jazz"

Thu Mar 21 00:43:01 UTC 2019

GB affords several eds. of the 17th century "Comedie," the earliest being
from 1633.

I cannot locate the quote.

>From the cite it's impossible to know whether this sense of "jaser" was
"slang" or merely a one-off literary metaphor.

In any case, there's no reason to assume that any 17th or 18th (or even
19th) century usage of "jaser" in French has any connection with 20th
century U.S. usage of "jazz."
"
Now, if "jaser" in that sense was in French colloquial use in 1917-18, that
would be significant to the U.S. sexual sense of "jazz."

But perhaps not to the 1913 sense.

JL

JL

On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 8:32 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 3:38 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your response, JL. Congratulations on uncovering the book
>> with the 1918 citation. Also, thanks to Jonathon Green for providing
>> access to the full citation information via his website.
>>
>> Here is some evidence connecting "jaser" (French) to copulation from a
>> French reference work in 1861 and a French-English reference work in
>> 1896. Admittedly, sometimes reference works about slang will copy
>> information from previous reference works even when the information is
>> not well supported. I am simply presenting details for citations and
>> happily defer to you, Gerald Cohen, Jonathon Green, and other experts.
>>
>> After the citations  I present Green's note on the topic. His
>> bracketed 1896 citation points to Farmer's reference. Green candidly
>> states that "anglophone researchers have discounted any valid link".
>>
>> Year: 1861
>> Book: Glossaire érotique de la langue française depuis son origine
>> jusqu'à nos jours
>> (Erotic glossary of the French language from its origin to the present
>> day)
>> Compiler: Louis de Landes (Auguste Scheler)
>> Entry: Jaser, also Jazer
>> Quote Page 212
>> Publication: En Vente Chez Tous Les Librarires, Bruxelles
>> Database: Google Books Full View
>>
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=IQMtAAAAYAAJ&q=Jaser#v=snippet&q=Jaser&f=false
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> Jaser. — Employé dans un sens obscène pour faire l'acte vénérien.
>>
>> Tu as les genoux chauds, tu veux jaser.
>> La Comédie des proverbes.
>>
>> Jazer, voyez Jaser.
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> [Begin Google Translation]
>> Jaser. — Used in an obscene sense to do the venereal act.
>>
>> You have warm knees, you want to talk.
>> The Comedy of Proverbs.
>>
>> Jazer, see Jaser.
>> [End Google Translation]
>>
>> Year: 1896
>> Book: Vocabula Amatoria: a French-English Glossary of Words, Phrases,
>> and Allusions
>> Compiler: John Stephen Farmer
>> Quote Page 162, Column 2
>> Publication: Privately Printed for Subscribers Only, London
>> Database: Google Books Full View
>>
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=bQnUAAAAMAAJ&q=jaser#v=snippet&
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> JASER (or JAZER). To copulate; 'to chuck a tread'.
>>
>> Tu as les genoux chauds, tu veux jaser.—La Comédie des proverbes.
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> Green's Dictionary of Slang
>> https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/bua6kui
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> jazz v.
>> [jazz n.; note Pierre Guiraud in his ‘Dictionnaire érotique’ (Paris
>> 1978, 1984, 1993) has ‘jaser = coiter’ and gives as a quotation ‘Tu as
>> les genoux chauds, tu veux jaser’ (La Comedie des proverbes XVIe s.)
>> As his source he gives ‘Glossaire érotique de la langue francaise
>> depuis son origine jusqu’à nos jours’ by Louis de Landes, Bruxelles
>> 1861; this cit. is used in Farmer Vocabula Amatoria (1896); however
>> anglophone researchers have discounted any valid link]
>>
>> [1896   [UK]   Farmer Vocabula Amatoria (1966) 162: Jaser (or Jazer).
>> To copulate].
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> Garson
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 10:32 AM Jonathan Lighter
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Green's "1896" cites the French verb "jaser," not the English word
>> "jazz."
>> >  Farmer's "Vocabula Amatoria" is a French-English glossary.
>> >
>> > "Jaser," as I understand it, usually means "to gossip or chatter."
>> >
>> > I'm unaware of any citation in French showing "jaser/ jazer" was used to
>> > mean "to copulate."
>> >
>> > Green's 1918, BTW, comes from a rare book cited in HDAS. I should have
>> said
>> > "1918, in Cary."
>> >
>> > JL
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 9:29 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Green's Dictionary of Slang has a pertinent entry for the sexual sense
>> > > of the verb "jazz". The first citation in brackets is dated 1896. The
>> > > second citation in 1918 differs from the cite mentioned by Jesse.
>> > >
>> > > jazz v.
>> > > https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/bua6kui
>> > >
>> > > Click on the symbol appearing to the right of the timeline to see the
>> > > citation details.
>> > >
>> > > Garson
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 1:14 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > See also our discussion in 2015 about "The Jazz Girls" appearing in
>> the
>> > > > credits of the earliest known stag film, questionably dated to 1915.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2015-October/thread.html#139468
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 12:59 PM Laurence Horn <
>> laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > On Mar 19, 2019, at 12:49 PM, Jesse Sheidlower <
>> jester at PANIX.COM>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > It's in the OED:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > 1918 J. Dos Passos _Jrnl._ 11 Nov. in _Fourteenth Chron._
>> (1973) 229
>> > > > > Talk is mainly of seasickness and the possibility of French jazz.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > OED also has a 1920 example of the verb in a sexual sense.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > For those without access to the OED, here’s the latter cite:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 1920   A. C. Inman _Diary_ 14 Apr. in _Inman Diary_ (1985) I.
>> 167   He
>> > > had
>> > > > > had sexual relations with her (in his slang ‘had jazzed her’).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Pretty unambiguous.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 05:46:53PM +0100, Z Rice wrote:
>> > > > > >> Porter states in his writeup on "jazz":
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> "Although a similar evolution happened to the word “jazz,”
>> which
>> > > became
>> > > > > >> slang for the act of sex, that did not happen until 1918 at the
>> > > > > earliest."
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> However, Porter doesn't mention what exactly the 1918 citation
>> is or
>> > > > > where
>> > > > > >> it comes from. Does anyone have that information?
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Link to Porter's writeup:
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> https://www.wbgo.org/post/where-did-jazz-word-come-follow-trail-clues-deep-dive-lewis-porter#stream/0
>> > > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org