[Ads-l] tunk/tonk [was Re: Antedating of "Strip Poker"]

Wed Oct 9 18:13:26 UTC 2019

Considering that much of the audience for this paper may be unfamiliar with tonk/tunk and bid whist, the descriptions of the games are not very detailed.  However, it is clear that tonk (the author does not use “tunk”) is seen as a form of or similar to poker.  The paper says:

“Tonk, for example, is largely a game of luck in which the player's strategy plays a smaller role than it does in Poker. Also, given the small amount of money involved in each hand, Tonk is accessible to all African-Americans and not simply those with substantial resources, as is rarely the case in Poker. Tonk is not structured as a progressive gambling game in which the “pot” to be won may vary significantly in any given game. Similarly, because Bid Whist is relatively simple compared to Bridge, almost everyone in the African-American community who chooses to play, can play. Moreover, most Bid Whist is played under so-called “rise and fly” rules, meaning that the team losing one hand has to rise and fly (leave the table) so that the next team can sit down and challenge the winners. This allows for a very fast turnover on the tables so that the interaction among the teams is quite good. In these respects, the game is more social and less competitive than Bridge.”

John Baker

From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of Andy Bach
Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 1:12 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: tunk/tonk [was Re: Antedating of "Strip Poker"]

External Email - Think Before You Click

> IACs, the claim that
"The popular card games of Bid Whist and Tonk are African-American versions
of the card games Bridge and Poker, respectively"
> may be inexact.
> WRT to the claim that tonk/tunk is a form of poker, the game that I know
by that name is unequivocally a form of rummy.
> I grant that there may be a game by that name that is a form of poker, of
which I am unaware.

Yeah, it's interesting, that the rest of the quote:
Indeed, some will no doubt argue that Tonk and Bid Whist are mere
derivations of Bridge and Poker, perhaps the two most preeminent card games
in America. What is revealing is that African-Americans continue to play
card games (Tonk and Bid Whist) that are strikingly similar to Bridge an
Poker in most respects, but remarkably different in others, while
continuing to play Bridge and Poker.

Reorders it to match tonk with bridge and bid whist with poker. But I don't
know whist nor tonk so. I had wondered if in the original quote:
I allude to poker, both straight, draw and tunk, keno, faro, croquet,
polo, tennis, charades and base ball.

The "both" meant the 2 kinds were "straight poker" and "draw and tunk
poker", where "tunk" could be describing trading part of draw poker, rather
than 3 kinds, straight, draw and tunk Either that or it's one of those
where the Oxford comma would've helped.

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 2:15 AM Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com<mailto:hwgray at gmail.com>> wrote:

> When was growing up in St. Louis in the '50's, there were two colored
> neighborhoods, Downtown, wherein lived the poor - the (in)famous
> Pruitt-Igoe housing project was located there - and the West End, wherein
> lived the less-poor, among whom were this
> correspondent. And yes, I grew up playing both bid whist and tonk.
> By some quirk of housing patterns, Downtown and the West End were
> separated from each other by St. Louis's redundantly-white theatre
> district. As a consequence, Downtowners and West-Enders spoke different
> dialects. For instance, the rummy game whose name was pronounced "tonk" in
> the West End was known Downtown as "tunk," just as, e.g. the word
> pronounced as "funk" in the West End was pronounced Downtown as "fonk."
> When I was in the Army, hearts and bridge were the most popular,
> non-gambling card games among us "Monterey Marys" - 100% white, with the
> sole exception of this writer - from the old Army Language School. One day,
> I said to the [white] guys, "Let me teach you this new game, called 'bid
> whist.'" So, we started to play. Suddenly, one of the other [white] players
> exclaimed, "Hey, I know this game! We [white folk] call it 'kitty whist.'"
> On another occasion, I said to the guys, "Let me teach you this new game, a
> form of rummy called 'tonk.'" So, we started to play. Suddenly, one of the
> other [white] players exclaimed, "Hey, I know this game! We [white folk]
> call it 'tunk.'"
> It goes without saying that my head exploded. Until that moment, I'd been
> fully persuaded, on the basis of personal experience, that "tunk" was the
> pronunciation used by the black underclass in place of the "proper"
> pronunciation, "tonk," used by the black bourgeoisie.
> IACs, the claim that
> "The popular card games of Bid Whist and Tonk are African-American versions
> of the card games Bridge and Poker, respectively"
> may be inexact.
> WRT to the claim that tonk/tunk is a form of poker, the game that I know by
> that name is unequivocally a form of rummy. I grant that there may be a
> game by that name that is a form of poker, of which I am unaware.
> Youneverknow.
> FWIW, in the opinion of my spellcheck, the correct word is _tonk_, even
> though, "according to Hoyle," to coin a phrase, the game is "tunk."
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 5:37 PM Baker, John <JBAKER at stradley.com<mailto:JBAKER at stradley.com>> wrote:
>
> > While I don’t have the full text of the cited “tunk” reference (Critical
> > Race Theory: The Cutting Edge), the article quoted was also published as
> > Alex M. Johnson, Jr., Bid Whist, Tonk, and United States v. Fordice: Why
> > Integrationism Fails African-Americans Again, 81 Calif. L. Rev. 1401,
> 1446
> > – 47 (1993). (If anyone is sufficiently interested, let me know and I
> can
> > email you a PDF of the article.) The missing footnote reads:
> >
> > “One of the nation's leading Bridge players is Second Circuit Court of
> > Appeals Judge Amalya Kearse, an African-American. This fact was relayed
> to
> > me by my former colleague Lynn Baker, a former Kearse clerk.”
> >
> >
> > John Baker
> >
> >
> >
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> On Behalf Of
> Andy
> > Bach
> > Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 2:44 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: tunk/tonk [was Re: Antedating of "Strip Poker"]
> >
> > ####
> > I allude to poker, both straight, draw and tunk, keno, faro, croquet,
> polo,
> > tennis, charades and base ball.
> > ####
> > > It’s not clear to me whether “tunk” is considered here to be a form of
> > poker or not.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)>>
> >
> > *Tonk*, or *tunk*,[1]
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-1<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-1><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-1<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-1>>> is a
> matching
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game#matching_card_games<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game#matching_card_games><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game#matching_card_games<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game#matching_card_games>>> card game
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_game>>>, which combines features of
> > knock
> > rummy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rummy<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rummy><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rummy<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rummy>>> and conquian
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquian<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquian><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquian<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquian>>>.[2]
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-2<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-2><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-2<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)#cite_note-2>>> Tonk is a
> > relatively fast-paced game that can be played by 2-4 players. It was
> first
> > known to be played by blues and jazz musicians in southern Louisiana
> while
> > they would take their breaks in the back rooms of bars and saloons. In
> many
> > other places it has become a popular pastime for workers while on their
> > lunch breaks.
> >
> > The "tunk" reference
> >
> >
> https://books.google.com/books?id=Hd1MpNYWAaoC&pg=PA407&dq=tonk+card+game&lr=&hl=cs#v=onepage&q=tonk%20card%20game&f=false<https://books.google.com/books?id=Hd1MpNYWAaoC&pg=PA407&dq=tonk+card+game&lr=&hl=cs#v=onepage&q=tonk%20card%20game&f=false>
> > <
> >
> https://books.google.com/books?id=Hd1MpNYWAaoC&pg=PA407&dq=tonk+card+game&lr=&hl=cs#v=onepage&q=tonk%20card%20game&f=false<https://books.google.com/books?id=Hd1MpNYWAaoC&pg=PA407&dq=tonk+card+game&lr=&hl=cs#v=onepage&q=tonk%20card%20game&f=false>
> > >
> >
> > says:
> > The popular card games of Bid Whist and Tonk are African-American
> versions
> > of the card games Bridge and Poker, respectively. Indeed, some will no
> > doubt argue that Tonk and Bid Whist are mere derivations of Bridge and
> > Poker, perhaps the two most preeminent card games in America. What is
> > revealing is that African-Americans continue to play card games (Tonk and
> > Bid Whist) that are strikingly similar to Bridge an Poker in most
> respects,
> > but remarkably different in others, while continuing to play Bridge and
> > Poker
> >
> > Alas that is footnoted to page 413, which is not in the google book scan.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:39 AM Barretts Mail <mail.barretts at gmail.com
<mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com%0b>> > <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Nice find.
> > >
> > > Tunk/tonk
> > > https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/<https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/><
> > https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/<https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/>> <
> > > https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/<https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/><
> > https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/<https://bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/tunk/>>>
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)>> <
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)><
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonk_(card_game)>>>
> > >
> > > Merriam-Webster has “tunk” (alt. spelling “tonk”) as a variation of
> rummy
> > > but the OED has “tunk” only as a form of rent or payment in Wales. MW
> > does
> > > not date it. Here are two citations:
> > >
> > > 1. Forest and Stream, Volume 20, p. 486
> > > 19 Jul 1883
> > > https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt<https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt><https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt<https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt>> <
> > https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt<https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt><https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt<https://tinyurl.com/y6ff7syt>>>
> > >
> > > ####
> > > I allude to poker, both straight, draw and tunk, keno, faro, croquet,
> > > polo, tennis, charades and base ball.
> > > ####
> > > ####
> > >
> > > It’s not clear to me whether “tunk” is considered here to be a form of
> > > poker or not.
> > >
> > > 2. The Omega, p. 33
> > > Senior Class of the Ann Arbor High School
> > > 19 Jun 1884
> > > https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6<https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6><https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6<https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6>> <
> > https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6<https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6><https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6<https://tinyurl.com/yxebd8h6>>>
> > >
> > > ####
> > > Our enjoyments have been as innocents as the frolics of a lamb…. Old
> > Maid,
> > > Cross-eyed Crabs, Pig Euchre and Tunk each have a preference of one.
> > > ####
> > > ####
> > >
> > > The preference of one meaning that each game is preferred by one
> person.
> > >
> > > Benjamin Barrett (he/his/him)
> > > Formerly of Seattle, WA
> > >
> > > > On 6 Oct 2019, at 19:27, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM<mailto:adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > <mailto:adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Excellent find, Fred. Here is a citation from a couple years earlier
> > > > in 1904 that describes "strip tunk" which appears to be a precursor
> or
> > > > variant of "strip poker". The link goes to a clipping of the article.
> > > >
> > > > Date: May 2, 1904
> > > > Newspaper: Waterloo Daily Courier
> > > > Newspaper Location:
> > > > Article: Co-eds Have a New Game: It Is Called "Strip Tunk" and Have
> > > > Some Features That Are Decidedly Unique
> > > > Quote Page 2, Column 3
> > > > Database: Newspapers.com
> > > > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36836122/striptunk/<https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36836122/striptunk/><
> > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36836122/striptunk/<https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36836122/striptunk/>>
> > > >
> > > > [Begin excerpt - may contain OCR errors]
> > > > Kalamazoo co-eds are devoting their spare moments to “strip tunk" — a
> > > > game similar to poker, with the main feature a gradual taking off of
> > > > clothing by the loser of each hand. The game is also played in local
> > > > high school circles, and has reached such prevalence that school
> > > > authorities are planning a campaign against it. The hands are filled
> > > > by drawing in turn from cards on the table, filling one's hand by
> > > > exchange.
> > > >
> > > > In “srip tunk" the loser of each hand divests herself of one article
> > > > of clothing. After several hours the party usually resembles a garden
> > > > of Eden social event.
> > > > [End excerpt]
> > > >
> > > > The misspelling "srip tunk" in the second paragraph above is in the
> > > > original text.
> > > >
> > > > Below is another citation for "strip tunk".
> > > >
> > > > Date: May 19, 1904
> > > > Newspaper: Catholic Union and Times
> > > > Newspaper Location: Buffalo, New York
> > > > Article: "Edjucation."
> > > > Quote Page 1, Column 7
> > > > Database: Newspapers.com
> > > > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36837169/striptunk02/<https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36837169/striptunk02/><
> > https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36837169/striptunk02/<https://www.newspapers.com/clip/36837169/striptunk02/>>
> > > >
> > > > [Begin excerpt - may contain OCR errors]
> > > > "The authorities of the local high school are much worked up over the
> > > > discovery of a game known as 'strip tunk' among the larger boys of
> the
> > > > school. It appears that the game has been going on for several weeks
> > > > and that it now amounts to almost a mania, the boys putting in most
> of
> > > > their spare time at it.
> > > >
> > > > "The new game resembles poker, the loser taking off one article of
> > > > clothing for each point lost until stripped"
> > > >
> > > > It is not known how the boys got their peculiar idea of forfeits, but
> > > > it is supposed that it originated in a boyish desire for novelty. The
> > > > school authorities are making strenuous efforts to break up the
> > > > game.--Kalamazoo Augustinian
> > > > [End excerpt]
> > > >
> > > > Garson
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 9:08 PM Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu
<mailto:fred.shapiro at yale.edu%0b>> > <mailto:fred.shapiro at yale.edu>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> strip poker (OED 1929)
> > > >>
> > > >> 1906 _L.A. Daily Times_ 16 Feb. 1 (Newspapers.com) The chorus girls
> of
> > > one of the last comic-opera companies which visited Los Angeles
> > introduced
> > > the young bloods to a new fascinating game called "strip poker." ...
> The
> > > cards are held by the young men. The girls sit by to watch. At the end
> of
> > > every hand, all the girls whose young men have lost, proceed to remove
> > one
> > > article of wearing apparel. The game continues until -- well, for a
> long
> > > time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Fred Shapiro
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org><
> > http://www.americandialect.org<http://www.americandialect.org>>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > a
> >
> > Andy Bach,
> > afbach at gmail.com<mailto:afbach at gmail.com<mailto:afbach at gmail.com%3cmailto:afbach at gmail.com>>
> > 608 658-1890 cell
> > 608 261-5738 wk
> >
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>
> --
> -Wilson
> -----
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a

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