[Ads-l] Seen

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Sat Aug 8 20:09:26 EDT 2020


Precisely.

JL

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:24 PM George Thompson <george.thompson at nyu.edu>
wrote:

> My definitely non-Jewish family (don't ask) in Connecticut would say "sick
> to my/your/her stomach" -- always "to", and specifying whose stomach.
>
> GAT
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 2:12 PM Margaret Winters <mewinters at wayne.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > We lived with my grandparents and they and my mother spoke Yiddish until
> I
> > was about 7when we lost my grandmother, not only to mask things from my
> > sister and me.  But Yiddish doesn't seem to influence the preposition
> > variation.
> >
> > ----------------------------
> > MARGARET E WINTERS
> > Former Provost
> > Professor Emerita - French and Linguistics
> > Wayne State University
> > Detroit, MI  48202
> >
> > mewinters at wayne.edu
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 2:03 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: Seen
> >
> > Our household was only Yiddish speaking when my brother and I weren’t
> > supposed to understand something, and then only fragments with lots of
> > English code-switched in.  But I’m beginning to doubt my memory; “sick in
> > the stomach” doesn’t seem that bad at the moment (“sick in my stomach”
> > seems less likely), but maybe I’m just thinking of “sick in the head”,
> > which was fine—at least as an insult.
> >
> >
> > > On Aug 8, 2020, at 1:55 PM, Margaret Winters <mewinters at WAYNE.EDU>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I just looked the expression up in two English-Yiddish dictionaries to
> > see if the prepositional difference for two NYC speakers was somehow
> linked
> > to Yiddish speaking households (mine was when I was very young).  It
> didn't
> > help - Weinreich has 'sick in (!) the stomach' and Schaechter has 'sick
> to
> > the stomach' but neither Yiddish equivalent has a preposition at all.  Ah
> > well, 'twas an idea...
> > >
> > > Margaret
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > > MARGARET E WINTERS
> > > Former Provost
> > > Professor Emerita - French and Linguistics
> > > Wayne State University
> > > Detroit, MI  48202
> > >
> > > mewinters at wayne.edu
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 1:48 PM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: Seen
> > >
> > > I had that one too, but I’m not sure if the variation was free or
> > conditioned (and if so, on what).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Aug 8, 2020, at 1:47 PM, Margaret Winters <mewinters at WAYNE.EDU>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Interesting, Larry - I'm only a couple of years younger, also NYC and
> > the only expression I knew was (and continued to be until this discussion
> > came up here) 'sick to my stomach'.
> > >>
> > >> best to all,
> > >> Margaret
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------------
> > >> MARGARET E WINTERS
> > >> Former Provost
> > >> Professor Emerita - French and Linguistics
> > >> Wayne State University
> > >> Detroit, MI  48202
> > >>
> > >> mewinters at wayne.edu
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > >> Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 1:45 PM
> > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >> Subject: Re: Seen
> > >>
> > >> Hmmm.  I grew up with “sick at my stomach” (or more generally “sick at
> > one’s stomach” as in the DARE entry.  Not familiar with “sick at the
> > stomach”.  I like Kurath’s note:
> > >>
> > >>> In southern New England and in
> > >>> Greater New York City at is now fairly common among younger and
> > cultured
> > >>> persons.
> > >>
> > >> That was me in 1949, a very cultured younger speaker in NYC at age 4,
> > not infrequently sick at his stomach.
> > >>
> > >> LH
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On Aug 8, 2020, at 1:08 AM, Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> DARE has "sick at one’s stomach" (and variants including "sick at the
> > >>> stomach") under the entry for "at" and labels it "widespread exc
> North,
> > >>> though gaining currency throughout US." The relevant map from the
> DARE
> > >>> surveys of 1965-70 shows the usage was indeed widespread at the time,
> > >>> though I wonder if it has been "gaining currency" since then or
> > receding.
> > >>>
> > >>> Map:
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.daredictionary.com_view_maps_atprep2map.png&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=ZErdL5Ble6mVuORyHspf111YQ3UqtVnKzbqOg1Unta4&e=
> > >>>
> > >>> From the "at" entry:
> > >>>
> > >>> 2 in phr _sick at one’s stomach_ and varr: Nauseated. widespread exc
> > North,
> > >>> though gaining currency throughout US
> > >>> 1731 in 1906 Essex Inst. Coll. 42.224 MA, I am something better to
> day
> > than
> > >>> yesterday at my Stomack.
> > >>> 1882 Sweet & Knox Texas Siftings 80 (DAE), When he is sick at his
> > stomach .
> > >>> . he goes to Col. Andrews for advice.
> > >>> 1949 Kurath Word Geog. 78, _At the stomach_ is usual in all of the
> > South
> > >>> and the Midland and is not uncommon in Greater New York City,
> > Connecticut,
> > >>> and Rhode Island. In the greater part of New England and the rest of
> > the
> > >>> Northern area it is exceedingly rare. . . In southern New England and
> > in
> > >>> Greater New York City at is now fairly common among younger and
> > cultured
> > >>> persons.
> > >>> 1965-70 DARE
> > >>> Qu. BB16a, If something a person ate didn’t agree with him, he might
> be
> > >>> sick __ his stomach
> > >>> 408 Infs, widespread exc Nth, At; DC1, DE6, GA59, LA18, 25, 31, 40,
> At
> > the;
> > >>> NV8, At the belly; LA2, At the craw; MO20, At the tummy;
> > >>> Qu. BB16b
> > >>> Infs IN54, LA8, OK18, Sick at his stomach; MO39, OH42, Sick at the
> > stomach;
> > >>> CA212, Upset at the stomach;
> > >>> Qu. BB17
> > >>> Infs CA209, CO33, DE6, GA59, MI62, MO29, NJ9, VA42, (Be) sick at his
> > (or
> > >>> the, your) stomach;
> > >>> Qu. H69
> > >>> Inf TX91, Makes me sick at my stomach;
> > >>> Qu. II29b
> > >>> Infs IN45, VA58, Makes me sick at my (or the) stomach.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 12:07 AM Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> In the last, long-leaping line an NYT book-review by a native of New
> > >>>> Orleans:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "... sick at the stomach." I.e. "nauseated."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This is the phrase that I grew up using in East Texas. Never seen it
> > in
> > >>>> print afore.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nyti.ms_3gEkdHZ&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=fZ-nhPNfVKGbDnWspxBg-am34pMlyDhq-zH4p1Fx46Y&e=
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=MzILrrJoihfBLyZn-6h8vaoQ7JBLhRYIajqvXUKpcU8&e=
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=MzILrrJoihfBLyZn-6h8vaoQ7JBLhRYIajqvXUKpcU8&e=
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=MzILrrJoihfBLyZn-6h8vaoQ7JBLhRYIajqvXUKpcU8&e=
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=MzILrrJoihfBLyZn-6h8vaoQ7JBLhRYIajqvXUKpcU8&e=
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=MzILrrJoihfBLyZn-6h8vaoQ7JBLhRYIajqvXUKpcU8&e=
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=MzILrrJoihfBLyZn-6h8vaoQ7JBLhRYIajqvXUKpcU8&e=
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=DwIF-g&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=v2Wtu7DQZxSBMSJv-oEMNg&m=tU-Z45BxyqrIMks6n9m6N-ozkvtwtGlp31SMLa5DXDw&s=MzILrrJoihfBLyZn-6h8vaoQ7JBLhRYIajqvXUKpcU8&e=
> >
>
>
> --
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998.
>
> But when aroused at the Trump of Doom / Ye shall start, bold kings, from
> your lowly tomb. . .
> L. H. Sigourney, "Burial of Mazeen", Poems.  Boston, 1827, p. 112
>
> The Trump of Doom -- also known as The Dunghill Toadstool.  (Here's a
> picture of his great-grandfather.)
>
> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-gillray/an-excrescence---a-fungus-alias-a-toadstool-upon-a-dunghill/3851
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>


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