[Ads-l] Definition OTY

[Dan Goncharoff]

I read "his own facts" as "claims of truth unsupported by facts".

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 1:11 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > I read it as saying a man can be wrong about the facts, not the facts
> > themselves.
>
> Good point, Dan. The longer version of Bernard Baruch's quotation
> supports your interpretation:
>
> [Begin quotation]
> Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be
> wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts.
> [End quotation]
>
> Here is the 1975 remark from James R. Schlesinger. How would you interpret
> it?
>
> [Begin quotation]
> “Everybody is entitled to his own views,” Schlesinger said. “Everybody
> is not entitled to his own facts.”
> [End quotation]
>
> Garson
>
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 12:33 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Mark Mandel wrote:
> > > > I don't think Moynihan's use is the newer sense. I can say what I
> want
> > > > because *it's true*.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in the provenance of the expression ascribed to
> > > Moynihan you may find this article helpful:
> > >
> > > People Are Entitled To Their Own Opinions But Not To Their Own Facts
> > > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/03/17/own-facts/
> > >
> > > An Associated Press article from 1946 printed the following remark
> > > spoken by Bernard Baruch (a precursor to Moynihan's remark):
> > >
> > > Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be
> > > wrong in his facts.
> > >
> > > The statement above remark suggests that facts can be wrong.
> > >
> > > Garson
> > >
> > > > MAM
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 2:28 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I know we’ve had threads on this in the past (e.g. “I deny the fact
> > > > > that…”), and I suspect you’re right in that this non-committal use
> of
> > > > > “fact” is increasing.  In some contexts “claim” can be used as a
> > > > > non-presuppositional alternative to “fact”, but of course not all
> > > > > propositions correspond to overt claims.  And as you say,
> > > “proposition” is
> > > > > rather non-colloquial.  Of course, if there can be alternative
> facts,
> > > > > there’s no reason not to accelerate the trend.  As Daniel Patrick
> > > Moynihan
> > > > > didn’t quite say,
> > > > > “You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to
> > > your
> > > > > own facts. I am, though.”
> > > > >
> > > > > LH
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Aug 18, 2020, at 2:04 PM, Mark Mandel <markamandel at GMAIL.COM>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In general, I hear "fact" being used more and more often to mean
> > > > > something
> > > > > > like "proposition" in the logical sense. And the fact that I
> have to
> > > > > > describe the usage that way illustrates why the usage is
> spreading:
> > > we
> > > > > have
> > > > > > no colloquial word for the concept.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MAM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 3:17 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Remember "Truth is not truth"?   Remember "alternative facts"? :
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-chief-of-staff-mark-meadows-says-lack-of-evidence-of-mail-in-voting-fraud-is-the-definition-of-fraud
> > > > > >> :
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> “But there’s no evidence of widespread voter fraud,” Tapper
> added
> > > after
> > > > > >> Meadows reiterated his concern with voter rolls.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> “There’s no evidence that there’s not either. That’s the
> definition
> > > of
> > > > > >> fraud, Jake.”
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> See, undetected fraud is the worst fraud, so if there's no
> evidence
> > > of
> > > > > >> fraud, that means the fraud has gone undetected.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Extraordinary claims require undiscovered evidence.  Absent
> > > evidence is
> > > > > >> evidence of non-absence.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> JL
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> the
> > > > > truth."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> >
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>
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