[Ads-l] antedating "cloud nine" "cloud seven"

Thu Nov 12 22:18:03 UTC 2020

Like everybody else, I failed to check HDAS, which includes the following
in abbr. form:

1935 Albin J. Pollock _The Underworld Speaks_  (S.F.: Prevent Crime Bureau)
s.v.: _Cloud eight_, befuddled on account of drinking too much liquor.

Also San Francisco. I see a pattern.

JL

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 4:52 PM Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu> wrote:

> In an article in the Yale Alumni Magazine and coverage in the New York
> Times, I have posited a phenomenon of "numerical phrase inflation," where
> phrases like "whole six yards" or "cloud seven" in time get inflated up to
> the number nine.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:49 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: antedating "cloud nine" "cloud seven"
>
> Great work, JL and DanG.
>
> "The Times" of London published an article about "cloud nine" in 2016
> claiming that it originated in 1896. I have only seen the beginning of
> the article. Others have expressed skepticism about this origin tale.
>
> Newspaper: The Times
> Article: The origin of Cloud 9
> Author: Paul Simons
> Date: September 05 2016
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> An unlikely combination of a Victorian aristocrat and an international
> meteorology meeting 120 years ago led to a well known phrase
> describing a state of euphoria. In September, 1896, cumulonimbus, the
> greatest cloud in the world, was listed as Cloud 9 in a new cloud
> classification, and so to be on cloud nine became like floating on the
> tallest cloud on Earth.
>
> The story began with Sir Ralph Abercromby, who became fascinated by
> meteorology while serving in the British Army. He was forced to retire
> early from the army through ill health, but he was wealthy enough to
> pursue his own research projects into meteorology.
> [End excerpt]
>
> Here is a link to the analysis of "cloud nine" at the Online Etymology
> Dictionary which mentions "Some connect the phrase with the 1895
> International Cloud-Atlas . . .". The website also notes that "The
> phrase might appear in the 1935 aviation-based play 'Ceiling Zero' by
> Frank Wilbur Wead."
>
>
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.etymonline.com%2Fword%2Fcloud%2520nine&data=04%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40yale.edu%7Cff93194ad6c64d44897a08d8874c70cf%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637408109669665247%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=SeJLDfnbaPZcUQsOEHs14RmPKgzIliqslQ6DeX0n0Bk%3D&reserved=0
>
> Here is information from a Google snippet match within the play "Ceiling
> Zero".
>
> Date: Circa 1935
> Title: Ceiling Zero: A Play in Three Acts
> Author: Frank Wilber Wead
> Quote Page GB 51
>
> Database: Google Books Snippet Match requires verification. (Search
> for "1935" produces a snippet that says: As presented by Brock
> Pemberton at the Music Box, New York, on April 10 , 1935. Directed by
> Antoinette Perry. Setting designed by John Root.
>
> [Begin extracted text]
> TEX. Dizzy--Mike doesn't know what it's all about He's in Cloud Nine
> or ginned up most of the time.
> DIZZY. (Unbelievingly) Mike Owens shining spittoons!
> [End extracted text]
>
> While searching I also came across the Google Books snippet match in
> "Electrical West" circa 1936-1937 that DanG mentioned. But I also
> noticed that a poster with the handle gnorrn on Reddit found that
> match five years ago. In addition, gnorrn referred to the play
> "Ceiling Zero".
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> Electrical West magazine, San Francisco, 1936, p. 25:
>
> Trouble is, they start rebuilding up on cloud nine instead of digging
> down into the muck and dirt of humanity to bedrock and starting the
> foundations on hard fact
>
> EDIT: found a slightly earlier instance:
>
> Ceiling Zero: a play in three acts, by Frank Wead, copyright 1934.
>
> Mike doesn't know what it's all about. He's in Cloud Nine or ginned up
> most of the time.
>
> This play was made into a 1936 movie of the same name, which could
> have helped popularize the phrase.
> [End excerpt]
>
> Here is an instance in November 1943 of "Cloud 9" referring to a place
> one moves to after death, e.g., a heaven-like location.
>
> Date: November 18, 1943
> Newspaper: San Francisco, California
> Newspaper Location: San Francisco, California
> Article: Pelter's Horse Chilcot Has Found Green Pastures
> Quote Page 2H, Column 7
> Database: GenealogyBank
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> John Pelter must be happy tonight, up there on "Cloud 9." His good
> horse Chilcot has a permanent home, and Chilcot was Pelter's major
> passion. John died August 21 at the age of 80.
> [End excerpt]
>
> It appears that Barry Popik does not have an entry for "cloud nine".
> He does have an article about "I'm on cloud wine".
>
> Garson
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 2:56 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Google Books has a snippet from the journal Electrical West dated 1936
> (but
> > unverified):
> >
> > FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 25
> > Trouble is they start rebuilding up on cloud nine instead of digging down
> > into the muck and dirt of humanity to bed rock and starting the
> foundations
> > on hard fact.” “But I thought you just said that it was the human
> > weaknesses of men that made ...
> >
> > Electrical West was founded in 1895, so the dating is not unreasonable,
> and
> > the journal was also from San Francisco.
> >
> > DanG
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 7:31 AM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > OED: 1959, 1956.
> > >
> > > 1942 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Dec. 25) 1H: The party would have
> certainly
> > > heard a loud Brooklyn cheer from  up on cloud nine.
> > >
> > > 1943 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Apr. 29)  1H:  Discharged from the Navy
> > > because his plasma pressure was somewhere up on cloud seven.
> > >
> > > The underlying metaphor is "high." Hence "elated."
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> > >
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