[Ads-l] antedating "cloud nine" "cloud seven"

Thu Nov 12 21:51:37 UTC 2020

In an article in the Yale Alumni Magazine and coverage in the New York Times, I have posited a phenomenon of "numerical phrase inflation," where phrases like "whole six yards" or "cloud seven" in time get inflated up to the number nine.

Fred Shapiro

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From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:49 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: antedating "cloud nine" "cloud seven"

Great work, JL and DanG.

"The Times" of London published an article about "cloud nine" in 2016
claiming that it originated in 1896. I have only seen the beginning of
the article. Others have expressed skepticism about this origin tale.

Newspaper: The Times
Article: The origin of Cloud 9
Author: Paul Simons
Date: September 05 2016

[Begin excerpt]
An unlikely combination of a Victorian aristocrat and an international
meteorology meeting 120 years ago led to a well known phrase
describing a state of euphoria. In September, 1896, cumulonimbus, the
greatest cloud in the world, was listed as Cloud 9 in a new cloud
classification, and so to be on cloud nine became like floating on the
tallest cloud on Earth.

The story began with Sir Ralph Abercromby, who became fascinated by
meteorology while serving in the British Army. He was forced to retire
early from the army through ill health, but he was wealthy enough to
pursue his own research projects into meteorology.
[End excerpt]

Here is a link to the analysis of "cloud nine" at the Online Etymology
Dictionary which mentions "Some connect the phrase with the 1895
International Cloud-Atlas . . .". The website also notes that "The
phrase might appear in the 1935 aviation-based play 'Ceiling Zero' by
Frank Wilbur Wead."

https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.etymonline.com%2Fword%2Fcloud%2520nine&data=04%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40yale.edu%7Cff93194ad6c64d44897a08d8874c70cf%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637408109669665247%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=SeJLDfnbaPZcUQsOEHs14RmPKgzIliqslQ6DeX0n0Bk%3D&reserved=0

Here is information from a Google snippet match within the play "Ceiling Zero".

Date: Circa 1935
Title: Ceiling Zero: A Play in Three Acts
Author: Frank Wilber Wead
Quote Page GB 51

Database: Google Books Snippet Match requires verification. (Search
for "1935" produces a snippet that says: As presented by Brock
Pemberton at the Music Box, New York, on April 10 , 1935. Directed by
Antoinette Perry. Setting designed by John Root.

[Begin extracted text]
TEX. Dizzy--Mike doesn't know what it's all about He's in Cloud Nine
or ginned up most of the time.
DIZZY. (Unbelievingly) Mike Owens shining spittoons!
[End extracted text]

While searching I also came across the Google Books snippet match in
"Electrical West" circa 1936-1937 that DanG mentioned. But I also
noticed that a poster with the handle gnorrn on Reddit found that
match five years ago. In addition, gnorrn referred to the play
"Ceiling Zero".

[Begin excerpt]
Electrical West magazine, San Francisco, 1936, p. 25:

Trouble is, they start rebuilding up on cloud nine instead of digging
down into the muck and dirt of humanity to bedrock and starting the
foundations on hard fact

EDIT: found a slightly earlier instance:

Mike doesn't know what it's all about. He's in Cloud Nine or ginned up
most of the time.

This play was made into a 1936 movie of the same name, which could
have helped popularize the phrase.
[End excerpt]

Here is an instance in November 1943 of "Cloud 9" referring to a place
one moves to after death, e.g., a heaven-like location.

Date: November 18, 1943
Newspaper: San Francisco, California
Newspaper Location: San Francisco, California
Article: Pelter's Horse Chilcot Has Found Green Pastures
Quote Page 2H, Column 7
Database: GenealogyBank

[Begin excerpt]
John Pelter must be happy tonight, up there on "Cloud 9." His good
horse Chilcot has a permanent home, and Chilcot was Pelter's major
passion. John died August 21 at the age of 80.
[End excerpt]

It appears that Barry Popik does not have an entry for "cloud nine".
He does have an article about "I'm on cloud wine".

Garson

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 2:56 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Google Books has a snippet from the journal Electrical West dated 1936 (but
> unverified):
>
> FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 25
> Trouble is they start rebuilding up on cloud nine instead of digging down
> into the muck and dirt of humanity to bed rock and starting the foundations
> on hard fact.” “But I thought you just said that it was the human
> weaknesses of men that made ...
>
> Electrical West was founded in 1895, so the dating is not unreasonable, and
> the journal was also from San Francisco.
>
> DanG
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 7:31 AM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > OED: 1959, 1956.
> >
> > 1942 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Dec. 25) 1H: The party would have certainly
> > heard a loud Brooklyn cheer from  up on cloud nine.
> >
> > 1943 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Apr. 29)  1H:  Discharged from the Navy
> > because his plasma pressure was somewhere up on cloud seven.
> >
> > The underlying metaphor is "high." Hence "elated."
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40yale.edu%7Cff93194ad6c64d44897a08d8874c70cf%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637408109669665247%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=W%2FKtQ3YG%2FDhtZjy4rH%2FOTVusyhCJjg1a%2Fuj3TZWFuYc%3D&reserved=0
> >
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