[Ads-l] Odd Sequence of Tenses

Wed Oct 13 16:23:23 UTC 2021

Cool!

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:21 AM Betty Birner <bbirner at niu.edu> wrote:

> And just to add a non-sports example, there's this, from the 1995 movie
> "The American President":
>
> "You've said it yourself a million times. If there had been a TV in every
> living room sixty years ago, this country does not elect a man in a
> wheelchair."
>
> Betty Birner
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of
> Laurence Horn
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 10:01 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Odd Sequence of Tenses
>
> Huzzah! No modesty needed, Ben. 12 years before David Carkeet’s “On
> Language” column in the NYT Mag,
> https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/23/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-72300-on-language-batting-the-breeze.html,
> that doesn’t cite your earlier finding and dubbing.  If Carkeet cites you
> in his 2000 “On Language” piece, the world is a fairer place (and maybe I
> begin a data-exchanging correspondence with you 33 years ago instead of
> with him 21 years ago).  On the other hand, Carkeet has published a couple
> of novels with linguists as (anti-)heroes, so I don’t want to be too tough
> on him.
>
> LH
>
> > On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:48 AM, Ben Yagoda <byagoda at UDEL.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > I will immodestly note that I named and identified the “sports present”
> back in 1988:
> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html <
> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html>
> >
> > Ben
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:04:35 -0400
> >> From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU <mailto:
> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>>
> >> Subject: Re: odd sequence of tenses
> >>
> >>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 9:07 AM, dave at wilton.net <mailto:dave at wilton.net>
> <dave at WILTON.NET <mailto:dave at WILTON.NET>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't see anything odd at all, it's just the natural sequence of
> tenses. The superordinate verb is in the historical present, so the time
> frame of the entire sentence is the present. The lack of a pandemic in the
> subordinate clause would then normally be expressed in past perfect, as it
> is a "completed" action. (The fact that it didn't happen is over and done
> with.)
> >>>
> >>> "If there had not been a coronavirus in 2020, Trump probably won that
> election" seems odd to me, especially coming from Axelrod. Ending on
> "probably won" gives the impression that Axelrod thinks Trump should be
> president, which is clearly not the case. That's not literally what the
> sentence says, but ending on that note gives that impression especially
> when so many nutters are actually claiming he won.
> >>>
> >>> Removing the political considerations:
> >>>
> >>> "If the quarterback had not fumbled, the Jets probably won the game.”
> >>
> >> The sports context is very much relevant to these. It’s not a simple
> narrative present because of the counterfactual nature.  I vaguely recall
> having participated in an earlier thread on these, or a variant in which
> *both* clauses are in the present, there’s counterfactual force, and the
> speaker/writer is likely a sports commentator (or player).  I call these
> SCFHP:  Sports Counterfactual Historical Present.  Kai von Fintel also
> discusses them and reports on an exchange in a 2004 entry in his blog:
> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/ <
> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/>
> >>
> >> One of my favorite examples, from a NYT Dave Anderson column on the
> celebrated ex-Patriot kicker Adam Vinatieri,
> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
> <
> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
> >
> >>
> >> His even more important field goal was the 45-yarder in the snow that
> forced overtime against the Raiders in the playoffs after the 2001 season.
> “I think that’s the best kick I have ever seen.”  Belichick said in
> saluting Vinatieri for having broken Gino Cappelletti’s franchise record
> for points in a Dec. 4 game last season against the Jets. “Because of the
> conditions and because of what was at stake on that kick. I mean, that is
> the game. If he doesn’t make that kick, it is over. We don’t win that game
> without that kick. So that wasn’t the win, that was the tie, so it is over.”
> >>
> >> If Vinatieri doesn’t make that kick in the snow, that Patriots team
> doesn’t go on to win the Super Bowl at the Louisiana Superdome on
> Vinatieri’s 48-yarder against the Rams as time expired.
> >>
> >>
> >> Other examples from my collection; note that the first of these was
> posted on this list a quarter-century ago:
> >>
> >> After a spectacular catch by David Justice that prevents the winning
> run from coming in,  the announcer says, “If Justice doesn't catch that
> it's a double and the go-ahead run is in.”
> >>
> >> (posted by Bill Smith to ADS-L, 12 Oct. 1995, on World Series game)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> “If the shortstop doesn’t boot the easy double-play ball, nobody’s
> talking about the fan who interfered with Alou catching the foul ball.”
> >> (TV announcer after inning that cost Cubs 2003 pennant; note actual
> present counterfactual in apodosis)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> “If the ball [ground-rule double hit by Yankees’ Tony Clark] doesn’t
> bounce into the stands, the run scores and the game ends an hour and a half
> ago.”
> >>
> >> (Fox TV analyst Tim McCarver over replay of crucial event in 9th inning
> of Game 5 that may have been the turning point in the 2004 ACLS comeback
> win by Red Sox over Yankees; note ago)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "If he (Green) doesn't throw that cup, Artest doesn't go up into the
> stands.”
> >>
> >> (Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca, on filing charges for Nov. 19
> brawl, including two counts of assault and battery filed against John
> Green; from ABC World News Tonight, 12/8/04; cf. “If Artest doesn’t go
> in(to) the stands […there is no riot]”:  72 google hits)
> >>
> >>
> >> non-overt conditional with tense shift:
> >>
> >> from Avery Johnson, former guard and now assistant coach of the NBA
> Dallas Mavericks:
> >>
> >>
> >> “Last year, we don't win this game,” Johnson said.     (post-game TV
> news conf., 5/19/03)
> >>
> >> ===============
> >>
> >> The example we’ve been discussing is different because of the past
> tense in the antecedent, but it shares the property of having a
> counterfactual present in the consequent. The SCFHP version would be “If
> there isn’t a coronovirus in 2020, Trump probably wins that election”.
> >>
> >> LH
> >
> >
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>
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