[Ads-l] Odd Sequence of Tenses

Wed Oct 13 16:26:22 UTC 2021

Let's bear in mind that David Axelrod, whose usage started the thread, is a
former presidential adviser.

JL

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Cool!
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:21 AM Betty Birner <bbirner at niu.edu> wrote:
>
>> And just to add a non-sports example, there's this, from the 1995 movie
>> "The American President":
>>
>> "You've said it yourself a million times. If there had been a TV in every
>> living room sixty years ago, this country does not elect a man in a
>> wheelchair."
>>
>> Betty Birner
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of
>> Laurence Horn
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 10:01 AM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Odd Sequence of Tenses
>>
>> Huzzah! No modesty needed, Ben. 12 years before David Carkeet’s “On
>> Language” column in the NYT Mag,
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/23/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-72300-on-language-batting-the-breeze.html,
>> that doesn’t cite your earlier finding and dubbing.  If Carkeet cites you
>> in his 2000 “On Language” piece, the world is a fairer place (and maybe I
>> begin a data-exchanging correspondence with you 33 years ago instead of
>> with him 21 years ago).  On the other hand, Carkeet has published a couple
>> of novels with linguists as (anti-)heroes, so I don’t want to be too tough
>> on him.
>>
>> LH
>>
>> > On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:48 AM, Ben Yagoda <byagoda at UDEL.EDU> wrote:
>> >
>> > I will immodestly note that I named and identified the “sports present”
>> back in 1988:
>> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html <
>> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html>
>> >
>> > Ben
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:04:35 -0400
>> >> From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU <mailto:
>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>>
>> >> Subject: Re: odd sequence of tenses
>> >>
>> >>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 9:07 AM, dave at wilton.net <mailto:dave at wilton.net>
>> <dave at WILTON.NET <mailto:dave at WILTON.NET>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't see anything odd at all, it's just the natural sequence of
>> tenses. The superordinate verb is in the historical present, so the time
>> frame of the entire sentence is the present. The lack of a pandemic in the
>> subordinate clause would then normally be expressed in past perfect, as it
>> is a "completed" action. (The fact that it didn't happen is over and done
>> with.)
>> >>>
>> >>> "If there had not been a coronavirus in 2020, Trump probably won that
>> election" seems odd to me, especially coming from Axelrod. Ending on
>> "probably won" gives the impression that Axelrod thinks Trump should be
>> president, which is clearly not the case. That's not literally what the
>> sentence says, but ending on that note gives that impression especially
>> when so many nutters are actually claiming he won.
>> >>>
>> >>> Removing the political considerations:
>> >>>
>> >>> "If the quarterback had not fumbled, the Jets probably won the game.”
>> >>
>> >> The sports context is very much relevant to these. It’s not a simple
>> narrative present because of the counterfactual nature.  I vaguely recall
>> having participated in an earlier thread on these, or a variant in which
>> *both* clauses are in the present, there’s counterfactual force, and the
>> speaker/writer is likely a sports commentator (or player).  I call these
>> SCFHP:  Sports Counterfactual Historical Present.  Kai von Fintel also
>> discusses them and reports on an exchange in a 2004 entry in his blog:
>> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/ <
>> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/>
>> >>
>> >> One of my favorite examples, from a NYT Dave Anderson column on the
>> celebrated ex-Patriot kicker Adam Vinatieri,
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
>> <
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
>> >
>> >>
>> >> His even more important field goal was the 45-yarder in the snow that
>> forced overtime against the Raiders in the playoffs after the 2001 season.
>> “I think that’s the best kick I have ever seen.”  Belichick said in
>> saluting Vinatieri for having broken Gino Cappelletti’s franchise record
>> for points in a Dec. 4 game last season against the Jets. “Because of the
>> conditions and because of what was at stake on that kick. I mean, that is
>> the game. If he doesn’t make that kick, it is over. We don’t win that game
>> without that kick. So that wasn’t the win, that was the tie, so it is over.”
>> >>
>> >> If Vinatieri doesn’t make that kick in the snow, that Patriots team
>> doesn’t go on to win the Super Bowl at the Louisiana Superdome on
>> Vinatieri’s 48-yarder against the Rams as time expired.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Other examples from my collection; note that the first of these was
>> posted on this list a quarter-century ago:
>> >>
>> >> After a spectacular catch by David Justice that prevents the winning
>> run from coming in,  the announcer says, “If Justice doesn't catch that
>> it's a double and the go-ahead run is in.”
>> >>
>> >> (posted by Bill Smith to ADS-L, 12 Oct. 1995, on World Series game)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> “If the shortstop doesn’t boot the easy double-play ball, nobody’s
>> talking about the fan who interfered with Alou catching the foul ball.”
>> >> (TV announcer after inning that cost Cubs 2003 pennant; note actual
>> present counterfactual in apodosis)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> “If the ball [ground-rule double hit by Yankees’ Tony Clark] doesn’t
>> bounce into the stands, the run scores and the game ends an hour and a half
>> ago.”
>> >>
>> >> (Fox TV analyst Tim McCarver over replay of crucial event in 9th
>> inning of Game 5 that may have been the turning point in the 2004 ACLS
>> comeback win by Red Sox over Yankees; note ago)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "If he (Green) doesn't throw that cup, Artest doesn't go up into the
>> stands.”
>> >>
>> >> (Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca, on filing charges for Nov.
>> 19 brawl, including two counts of assault and battery filed against John
>> Green; from ABC World News Tonight, 12/8/04; cf. “If Artest doesn’t go
>> in(to) the stands […there is no riot]”:  72 google hits)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> non-overt conditional with tense shift:
>> >>
>> >> from Avery Johnson, former guard and now assistant coach of the NBA
>> Dallas Mavericks:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> “Last year, we don't win this game,” Johnson said.     (post-game TV
>> news conf., 5/19/03)
>> >>
>> >> ===============
>> >>
>> >> The example we’ve been discussing is different because of the past
>> tense in the antecedent, but it shares the property of having a
>> counterfactual present in the consequent. The SCFHP version would be “If
>> there isn’t a coronovirus in 2020, Trump probably wins that election”.
>> >>
>> >> LH
>> >
>> >
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>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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